On A Serious Note
 

Welcome to Jestertunes! If you're new here, you may want to subscribe to my RSS feed. Feel free to leave a comment, read through the archives, and enjoy yourself. See you again real soon!

Dave over at The Watters Edge sent me an email yesterday morning asking if I would check out his latest post.

Hey Jester, Would love your opinion on a post I did today since you are one of my favorite opinionated gay bloggers. --Dave

Since flattery (and gifts) gets people just about anything they want, I clicked over to the post and discovered that he had written about a situation that had taken place out here in California this past week. I’m not sure how much coverage it got in the rest of the country, but out here the news was all over it between yet another Hilton DUI and Britney Spears picking up kleenex at Ralph’s Grocery.

There was another school shooting, this time in Oxnard. Unlike the “typical” scenario* the shooter was not a lonely outcast who had finally grown tired of being picked on. This time the shooter picked his victim on purpose, because the victim hit on him.

Both the victim and the shooter were 14 year old boys.

From Dave:

[The victim, whom we will call] Bob went to school in full makeup, wore feminine clothing, and hit on other boys at school.

The boy that shot Bob, was quiet, had never been in trouble before and obviously couldn’t deal with Bob’s advances.

But wait, there’s more.

Bob was a ward of the state. Bob was a ward of the state against his father’s wishes. Bob was taken out of his home at Bob’s request by family services because Bob’s father “did not accept Bob’s lifestyle choice” and would not allow Bob to go to school in full makeup and feminine clothing.

The state encouraged Bob to express himself with the makeup and the clothing.

It is my humble opinion the the state greatly contributed to the death of this minor.

I have to disagree that the state “greatly contributed” to his death. I’m actually quite impressed that the state recognized the importance of Bob’s situation and agreed to remove him from his father’s custody in the first place. How bad must Bob’s life with his dad have been that before the age of 14 he successfully petitioned the state to escape? In other states, wouldn’t the answer have been, “Tough shit, kid, you’ll be 18 soon enough?”

If you want to fault the state for something, fault them for failing to fully recognize the real dangers faced by gay and transgendered teenagers. But I don’t think that was a “great” contributing factor to Bob’s death.

Dave addresses the blame that must be placed at the feet of Bob’s father:

He should have had a better rapport with his son and let him know that people are scared of what they don’t understand and can react violently to things they find unusual.

Yes, he should have. However that would have required Bob’s grandparents to instill that belief in their son, and so on further up the chain. Most of us raise our kids how we were raised. We pass on the bad habits and attitudes of our family unless we make a conscious effort to break the cycle. Even with that conscious effort, many abused kids still become abusers. Is Bob’s death his father’s fault? No. Bob’s shitty life was his father’s fault. The fact that Bob had to ask the government to help him escape his father is his father’s fault. The fact that Bob’s father could not realize the special needs his (probably) transgendered son had is his fault.

Ultimately the shooter has to be held responsible for what he did. But he was 14. How responsible can you find a 14 year old for anything? Just turned 14 by the way, 1 week after his 14th birthday is when he did the shooting and will therefore be tried as an adult by the state.

I have to fault his parents to a large degree. How can you not know your child is so wound up about something that he’s going to kill someone? Where did the kid get the gun? (I haven’t been able to find out yet) If he didn’t get it from home where did he get the money? Guns are not cheap.

How anti-gay was the home this kid was raised that he’d shoot a kid that was hitting on him?

A 14 year old boy can (in most cases) father a child. A 14 year old boy can get married in some states. A 14 year old boy can understand and comprehend that pointing a weapon at another living thing and pulling the trigger will result in the harm or death of that living thing. A 14 year old boy knows that there are consequences for his actions. Has he never been punished for anything in his life? I do not believe that the shooter had any question in his mind that it might be wrong to kill Bob. He made what I would call an adult decision and should therefore face adult consequences. I don’t believe there is any “magic age” that should determine the readiness of a person to commit a crime, drink a beer, drive a car, or have sex. I understand the need to legislate it, but I don’t believe it’s a very effective system.

The shooter’s home life may not be that “anti-gay.” It could simply be that the shooter’s family is simply “gay ignorant.” It’s possible that his parents had never approached the subject of homosexuality with him. It’s more than possible that the shooter’s family had never really even discussed sex or for that matter drugs, smoking, or any other “adult” theme with their child. I think the shooter’s access to a weapon is definitely something that can most likely be blamed on the parents. The fact that this kid was having such difficulty with the sexual advances by Bob and those difficulties weren’t noticed or addressed by his parents is definitely something that can be blamed on his parents. How can you not realize your child is so upset that he could literally kill someone? How can you not provide your child with the education necessary to understand people who are different from you?

The state took the child out of a safe home because the kid wanted to pursue a lifestyle choice. Being gay is not a lifestyle choice. Wearing makeup and feminine clothes is a lifestyle choice. You can be gay and wear regular clothes and no makeup. Would the state come and take a girl out of a home because her parents would not let her wear makeup and slutty clothes? Absolutely not. Would the state take a boy out of a home because they did not let him drink booze and do drugs? Absolutely not.

Bob was fed, Bob had a roof over his head, Bob was not beaten or abused, he had rules that he didn’t like and the state had no right to take him out of that home.

I think Dave is working from a faulty starting position here: if Bob was transgendered, dressing in feminine or girl’s clothes and wearing makeup was less a “lifestyle choice” than an external expression of an inner torment. I doubt seriously that Bob wore makeup to piss people off. I doubt seriously that Bob enjoyed the torment that he surely suffered at the hands of other 8th graders. If the state recognized that Bob was not able to get the evaluation and psychological counseling that transgendered individuals need, they absolutely did the best thing for Bob by removing him from a home that could be emotionally and mentally abusing him. It’s not the same as not letting him drink booze or letting a girl wear “slutty” clothes.

Dave says that Bob was not beaten or abused, but is that the same as saying that Bob was in a nurturing or healthy environment? No, it’s not. Without a bit more information it’s hard to conclude that the state was wrong to remove Bob from his father’s care. I have to assume the case for removal was quite compelling, as the state does not historically, arbitrarily, decide to separate kids from their parents.

Finally comes the blame the victim mentality. Bob should not have hit on the shooter. To this I say, Bob should not have hit on the shooter after the shooter had rejected initial advances. But this was not the case, Bob, even after being told to stop, continued to harass the child that shot him.

This smells a bit like the “gay panic” defense to me. We will likely never know to what extent the shooter was “harassed” by Bob. Did the shooter take an odd look as a sexual advance? What was said? On how many occasions? What sort of encouragement did the shooter give Bob? In my experience as a gay teenager, I had to have a written engraved invitation to get the confidence to “hit on” a guy. I can look back on times when in retrospect I’m CERTAIN that a friend of mine was asking me for sex and because of my fear of being outed (and rejected) I ignored those not-so-subtle come ons. I think it’s far more likely that Bob expressed interest in the shooter, either directly or via a friend and the shooter became so embarrassed and humiliated that he felt he had no choice but to murder Bob.

Plenty of blame to go around. But if you are a parent the way you can avoid something like this happening is to let your children know, there’s nothing wrong with being gay, and how to properly resolve conflict. Be a role model. Treat even the people you hate with at least a modicum of courtesy and respect, to show them that you try and treat people even those you hate the way you’d want to be treated.

Finally a point that I feel like I can completely agree with Dave about. Even if you want to teach your children that you (and your religion) believe that homosexuality is wrong, the overwhelming point should be made that violence and hatred is never acceptable. A gun is no way to settle a conflict. All people, even those who are different from you, deserve respect. There’s a reason “Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you” is called the “Golden Rule.” It’s supposed to supersede all other rules!

While a tragic confluence of errors and bad parenting contributed in some ways to this unfortunate situation, the blame is laid squarely on the shoulders of the 14 year old shooter. He made the decision to take a life in cold blood. He had the forethought to bring a weapon to school. He had hundreds upon hundreds of opportunities right up to the moment he pulled the trigger to change his mind. He had presence of mind to devise a plan to carry out this murder. His parents, Bob’s father, and especially Bob should not be on trial.

If Bob had simply been another “normal” straight kid who made an enemy at school would we be having this discussion? The fact that we have to explain that Bob was homosexual or transgendered in an effort to find meaning in the shooter’s actions shows how far we really have to go to find acceptance, even among the gay community.

What do you think?

* I hate that there’s such a thing as a “typical” school shooting.


Don’t forget to join me this Sunday evening on The Mr. Fabulous Radio Show! February 24th, 2008 at 7pm EST. Call in and talk to us live by calling: (646) 652-4911

46 Responses to “On A Serious Note”
 

I found your site on technorati and read a few of your other posts. Keep up the good work. I just added your RSS feed to my Google News Reader. Looking forward to reading more from you.

Aaron Wakling

Aaron Wakling wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 12:16 am

 
 

I hadn’t seen anything over here about the shooting. It’s a horrible shame and so sad.

Geeky Tai-Tai’s last blog post…We Had a Very SPECIAL Visitor!

Geeky Tai-Tai wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 12:33 am

 
 

It makes me think of Tennessee, trying to ban the mention of “teh Gay” in school. How would that effect students entering puberty (all students - gay, str8, or trans) when the school isn’t even allowed to discuss reality.

Robguy’s last blog post…What’s in a name…

Robguy wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 12:43 am

 
 

I’ve already said most of what I had to say over at Dave’s, so I won’t repeat it. But I’ll add just a couple of things.

I don’t remember hearing about this particular shooting, though there has been stuff I’m trying to tune out about Spears and Hilton. Maybe if the story was literally in between the other two, perhaps that is how I missed it?

And I do think that we would still be talking about it (if we had seen the news story), just not quite along the same lines, even if the victim were not gay or transgendered or whatever.

I knew several gay guys (though not in school) and none of them wore makeup. At least, none of them wore makeup that I could see, other than during costume contests. I did know one gay guy who must have had a death wish for telling everyone he’d slept with a really big guy who either wasn’t gay or who was still very deep in the closet. That I am aware of, I only know one transgendered person. She doesn’t tell me stuff, and I haven’t asked. By the time I was seeing a lot of her, it was already a done deal. I don’t think that she wore a lot of makeup in public when she was still a guy, and the times I remember him wearing earrings and such it seemed more like a joke than anything else. She doesn’t wear such loud stuff now that she’s a woman.

Laughingattheslut’s last blog post…Monday Morons: Just a few things that annoyed me this week

Laughingattheslut wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 4:50 am

 
 

I’ve already said most of what I had to say over at Dave’s, so I won’t repeat it. But I’ll add just a couple of things.

I don’t remember hearing about this particular shooting, though there has been stuff I’m trying to tune out about Spears and Hilton. Maybe if the story was literally in between the other two, perhaps that is how I missed it?

And I do think that we would still be talking about it (if we had seen the news story), just not quite along the same lines, even if the victim were not gay or transgendered or whatever.

I knew several gay guys (though not in school) and none of them wore makeup. At least, none of them wore makeup that I could see, other than during costume contests. I did know one gay guy who must have had a death wish for telling everyone he’d slept with a really big guy who either wasn’t gay or who was still very deep in the closet. That I am aware of, I only know one transgendered person. She doesn’t tell me stuff, and I haven’t asked. By the time I was seeing a lot of her, it was already a done deal. I don’t think that she wore a lot of makeup in public when she was still a guy, and the times I remember him wearing earrings and such it seemed more like a joke than anything else. She doesn’t wear such loud stuff now that she’s a woman.

Laughingattheslut wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 4:50 am

 
 

Ooops. Sorry about that.

laughingattheslut wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 4:53 am

 
 

WOW. It’s sad. I had not heard anything on the news about this either. I feel sorry for all involved really. Bob’s dad, Bob’s friends, the shooter’s family, and especially Bob. He was expressing himself in the only way he knew how. I find this story horribly sad.

Sodapop’s last blog post…Blah blah blah

Sodapop wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 5:47 am

 
 

Great post. I agree; the shooter had plenty of time to rethink his potential actions before he acted on them. In my mind, if Bob had hit on the guy several times, knowing that the guy wasn’t interested, the shooter should have gone to the guidance counselor instead so that Bob could be counseled in the proper way to stop hitting on people after the first rejection.

I hope to hell that the gay defense of which you speak is completely rejected by the judge. Although everyone has a right to make a defense, judges can preclude certain defenses. I hope that decent judge would realize that this defense propagates hate crimes.

Thanks for sharing!

The Absurdist’s last blog post…Who is the REAL Absurdist around here?

The Absurdist wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 6:34 am

 
 

Wonderful post…it really moved me. I have two much younger sisters, one of whom is just starting middle school and the whole annoying/terrifying stage of discovering sexuality. Now, she is very likely heterosexual. No one will blink an eye (except her protective family) if she wants to wear provocative clothing and high heels as she learns who she is as a young woman. She has the right to experiment with make-up, flirting, having crushes and she will have the important life experiences of being admired, dating, and the pain of being rejected.

Why should the Bobs of this world be denied the same rites of passage and the same freedom of self-exploration and expression, because society is afraid? It’s ridiculous and it only ends in pain.

The entire situation is so sad and such an incredible waste of life…

Sly wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 7:41 am

 
 

damn, i never even heard of this. not that i watch the news a lot, but still. this is heavy stuff.

and probably too heavy for me to comment on now. i’m having the day from hell here at work.

hellohahanarf wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 9:01 am

 
 

I don’t think there is a single thing that Jester has said in this post that I do not agree with. Kudos for an eloquent and heartfelt post about this horrible tragedy.

Though I do agree that it’s never polite to keep hitting on someone once they have rejected your advances, there is no way SHOOTING that person is the appropriate next step.

Lee wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 9:53 am

 
 

i actually read this story yesterday when i ran across it on towleroad. wierd, huh, that what should be somewhat local news for us in northern california never registered a blip. i guess it wasn’t important enough to the news authotities around here.

anyway, it all just reminded me of the gwen aurajo tragedy since, living in fremont, i got to see for myself the local impact of such a story. and i am still so saddened by the idea that 1) queer people are killed just for trying to live their lives to their fullest and 2) that the gay experience and the transgender experience are also treated as if interchangeable.

maybe in some cases it is, but i believe the majority of us as gay men have no idea what it feels like to actually want to be a woman. i know i don’t. so in a way, i suppose that is a silver lining in this situation that the state sees that there is a difference.

there is still plenty to say, but i agree with everything jester has already said. and although i hate the idea that the shooter has ruined the rest of his life for such a senseless act, the fact is he had no grounds to shoot another person who posed no physical threat as recourse for flirtation. it’s just tragic.

danny/ink2metal’s last blog post…wow! castro finally resigns

danny/ink2metal wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 11:38 am

 
 

I can’t even read all of this because it’s so frustrating to me.

“well, this shouldn’t happen and this shouldn’t happen and blah blah blah blah blah”

Bottom line:

You don’t fucking shoot people.

Ever.

No matter what the hell they did or didn’t do to you.

Miss Britt’s last blog post…Why This Zoo Hater Is Now An Official Annual Member

Miss Britt wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

 
 

Geeky Tai-Tai - These situations are all sad, regardless of the circumstances. This one just really reeks.

Robguy - I don’t get why people have not grasped the concept that more education is superior to ignorance.

LaughingAtTheSlut - Even if Bob was strutting around dressed like a peacock and crowing about his crush on the shooter, it doesn’t excuse his being shot and killed.

Sodapop - What is worst for me is that there are two young lives that have been totally destroyed by these events, and countless friends and classmates who are affected as well.

Absurdist - California courts almost always exclude the gay panic defense. Thankfully.

Sly - We keep hearing all this talk of the ’sexualization of our minors’ as if it’s a new phenomenon. People seem to forget that in many cultures boys begin fathering children at 13. Girls are expected to marry as soon as they become fertile.

hello - I can’t post pretty pictures ALL the time. Though I might have more readers if I did. :D
Lee - Exactly.

danny - The Gwen Araujo story was incredibly tragic, too. It drives me absolutely insane to hear people lump homosexuality together with transgenderism. They are NOT the same thing. They have VERY different challenges and distinctions. I can’t even imagine the personal hell and torture that must accompany feeling as though you were born in the wrong skin.

Miss Britt - Way to bottom line it. :)

jester wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

 
 

I sure hope the judicial system and the media doesn’t turn this into yet another circus where the goal is to find anyone to blame but the perpetrator.

“Blame the parents,” “blame the laws,” “blame the religious right,” “blame the school,” “blame the gun”.

Blame anything that fits the agenda.

The kid chose to shoot another kid. The reason, if not clear self-defense of an urgent life-threatening manner, is irrelevant. A criminal’s intent or lack of self-control does not need to introduce rationalization of murder.

whall’s last blog post…I’m not here at the moment, please leave a message?

whall wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

 
 

The media and several groups right now are looking for someone to blame. I am surprissed this is not all over conservatve talk radio. Or maybe Bill O’Reily saying the kid (Bob) deserved it.

But at this point I think we as people can serve this poor boys memory well. I think it would be great to shift focus on how to prevent this type of violence from happening again. It was only in 1993 that our community lost Brandon Teena. I know today our state had introduced a bill that would mandate tolerance lessons in school. Is this the solution? Or is this the best we can do? I don’t know the answer. What I do know is that the readers of this blog are smart and maybe we have a better idea.

Topncal’s last blog post…Ten Things I Wish I Could Say or That I Should Say to Certain People

Topncal wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

 
 

In the interest of fairness, for a different and I do mean different take on this story, check out this article (specifically the comments): http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1970973/posts?page=151,30

jester wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

 
 

i just don’t get it. everyone is talking tolerence (which is extremely important, don’t get me wrong), but why aren’t they teaching that violence is never the answer? doesn’t matter if a boy wears makeup, if a girl has a blue mohawk, if a boy drives a muscle car, if a girl plays chess…violence is never the way to react when these kids want you to experience things that they enjoy. for fuck’s sake, as rodney king said, “why can’t we all get along?”

hellohahanarf wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 4:51 pm

 
 

I remained calm for most of the story, but then I got to the comments. They are just hateful fuckers.

No excuse for a shooting, but the kid was a little more than “gay”. He wore dresses, high-heels, lipstick, and fingernail polish to school.

It is okay because the kid wore lipstick.

The next comment refering to it being 10 years after Matthew Shepard said.

Once every 10 years. This is nearly epidemic.

WTF are these hateful bastards thinking. It is only not to worry because it only happens one every 10 years.

Topncal’s last blog post…Ten Things I Wish I Could Say or That I Should Say to Certain People

Topncal wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 5:49 pm

 
 

hey jester,

i just checked out that free republic link and am really disappointed in what so many of the commenters are saying. i just hope to gawd that none of the haters are licensed to own a gun.

danny/ink2metal’s last blog post…in the chatterbox: adding my two cents

danny/ink2metal wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

 
 

Okay, I just posted two comments over at Watter’s edge, which I do read, BTW. I just missed that particular blog post.

I did get on Charlene a bit on the gun issue…I do not take the same stance in any way, shape or form that she takes on gun control and “killing in the schools”. I think that’s just a bunch of total fucking bullshit.

Absurdist’s last blog post…Pest Ghost

Absurdist wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 7:20 pm

 
 

I want to clear up a little bit of confusion. “Transgender” is not the same as “gay.” A transgendered person honestly and legitimately believes that he or she is in the body of the wrong person. This is not equal to or even analogous to being gay, which is simply being attracted to the same sex.

They aren’t really related, but transgendered people have a higher likelihood of being gay than non transgendered (sometimes called “natal”) people. That said, a boy who believes he is a girl, and a lesbian, is not simply a straight boy. He is a boy who feels that he is a girl, and is attracted to girls.

Some transgendered people simply cross over, however.

The Watcher’s last blog post…Activist Judges

The Watcher wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 7:22 pm

 
 

[...] here in California this past week. Im not sure how much coverage it got in the rest of source: On A Serious Note, [...]

Personal injury lawyers » Blog Archive » On A Serious Note wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

 
 

I heard about this. Not a lot, but a little. There is no true bright side, but at least this boy felt comfortable enough in hie own sexuality to stand up for himself and be who he was. How many people wander around their whole lived hiding behind a mask? I can only hope that this boy’s tragedy encourages more people to be who thy are at any cost. It is very true that not all gay people like to cross dress. It’s also true that most gay people will not pursue someone who has declared themselves strait.
This was a boy who was expressing himself. I have to agree that we don’t know the depth to which he continued his persuit of the shooter. I have to agree too that the shooter should be tried as an adult. You have to PLAN to obtain and take a gun to school. You have plenty of time to THINK about what you are doing. There is plenty of time to change your mind.
I wonder if he had killed himself too if we would be so quick to forgive. I think we would have declared him crazy. We would have dismissed him as a nut job and condemned him for his actions. He took a life. for whatever reason, it was wrong.

ginamonster’s last blog post…The story continues

ginamonster wrote on February 19th, 2008 at 11:21 pm

 
 

Whall - You will notice that I place the blame firmly on the shoulders of the shooter. 14 years old or not. It would be easy to throw blame at religious groups and the school administration. But it’s just not warranted.

TopNCal - I think trying to “teach” tolerance isn’t something you can really do. I do believe that you should offer education and shine a light on the things that people have trouble understanding and fear. But ultimately tolerance and acceptance have to be lessons that we learn long before we enter the school system.

hello - Unfortunately “violence is not the answer” is a seldom heard refrain. Nearly every show on tv involves fighting, or weapons, or murder. We’re afraid to let people carry 4 ounces of hair gel on an airplane. We’re bombing the fuck out of the middle east and torturing prisoners… where is a kid supposed to learn that shooting someone is the wrong way to deal with their problems?

TopNCal - Except that it doesn’t happen only every 10 years. Gwen Araujo is a good example. There have been how many gay bashings reported in the news lately? Maybe it’s only every 10 years that a story hits national mainstream media. That’s hardly the same thing.

danny - I guess that a majority of those folks DO have guns.

Absurdist - I’ll check your comments out over there.

The Watcher - Welcome. I don’t think anyone here is really confused over the difference between homosexuality and transgenderism. The original author (Dave) seemed to use the term “gay” to describe this poor kid, when I think it’s pretty clear that he was not in fact gay.

ginamonster - exactly. The shooter made the conscious decision to kill. His fault. End of story.

jester wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 2:00 am

 
 

Who is forgiving the shooter? Did I miss a comment, or is that something on a different website?

I could be wrong, but I think that most of us still think he’s a nut job, etc….

laughingattheslut’s last blog post…Monday Morons: Just a few things that annoyed me this week

laughingattheslut wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 5:06 am

 
 

Here is the question I want to ask… how exactly do we define hate crime?

In the many (horribly offensive) comments on the linked site, someone mentions a crime of rape committed by a gay couple against some kid in Arkansas. I think we can all agree… rape=bad!

However, I think by current definitions, since the crime wasn’t committed based on race, gender, sexuality, sexual identity, religion, etc, that it doesn’t fit into the hate crime slot.

However… going back… rape=bad!
but… not a hate crime? thoughts?
Why do we need to set out ‘hate crimes’ as separate from other crimes?
If I burn down a mormon temple because I hate mormons, do I deserve a different punishment than if I burn down a mormon temple cuz I like fire?

Lee wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 11:27 am

 
 

Not that we all don’t agree that rape is bad anyway, but…

Don’t most rapists have a type that they go after? Some of them target twenty-five year old blond women, and some of them target twelve year old black boys, etc…

So maybe that would make it a hate crime on top of it just being a really horrible thing to do in the first place.

Not sure I can say anything more helpful since I haven’t heard about rapist gay couples in Arkansas.

laughingattheslut’s last blog post…Nobody cares what you had for lunch, and nobody cares about art class either

laughingattheslut wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

 
 

laughingattheslut - I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you are forgiving the shooter, providing an excuse maybe, but that’s a conversation that is taking place on Dave’s site.

Lee & laughingattheslut - Hate crimes are so called based on motivation, and yes, I do think there should be additional punishment based on the motivation of the criminal. If you target and attack someone based solely on their race, religion, or sexuality you deserve every punishment we can throw at you. If a white man gets killed because he’s in the “wrong” neighborhood in Oakland, it’s a hate crime. If a skinhead goes out to “fag bash” it’s a hate crime. Killing someone during the commission of a robbery is not a hate crime. It’s a crime of opportunity with a completely different motivation. We already differentiate between motivations for pre-meditated versus heat of the moment versus self defense. Why is the classification of a “hate crime” so polarizing?

jester wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

 
 

I agree that premeditation vs heat of the moment is a big difference.

If I sit in an alley and decide to kill the next person that walks by is this any different than deciding to kill the next person that walks by?

If my intention is to kill, does it matter if my impulse is directed or indirected?

If I like to skin people alive to make a lovely human skin burka does it matter than I only skin black women? Should I get a different punishment for skinning only black women than if I indiscriminately skin anyone?

Lee wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

 
 

Lee - Yes it’s different, lying in wait to murder someone versus spur of the moment. And both of those scenarios are different than driving by a gay bar looking to kill a fag for the fun of it. If you targeting black women simply because they are black women it deserves a different punishment. Hate Crime enhancements really only add about 5 years to a sentence, but in some cases the Hate Crime enhancement makes the crime capital and eligible for the death penalty.

jester wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

 
 

So let’s say I’m a real asshole (I know, real stretch right) and I decided I’m going to get really drunk one night (again, way off base I know) and go down to the local bar and beat to death the man that’s been banging my girlfriend while I’m at work with a pool stick cause I hate him soooo much.

OR

I’m a real asshole that hates fags and I get drunk and go down to the bar and beat to death the gay guy that I know.

Same injuries, same cause of death…both cases I left the house intending to kill someone because I hate them

Which of these is a hate crime? Why not both?

Lee wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

 
 

Let me first take a moment to say a big “Eww” to the charming skin burka conception.

And although I am having trouble articulating my exact reasons why, I have to agree with Lee on this one. (wow, never thought that would happen).

Take Lee’s examples. Both fueled by hate, one premeditated, one a crime of passion. The law ought to judge both by the same standard…however, we have juries for a reason… those people who sit on juries are familiar with all of the nuances and predilections of humanity. We can recognize hate, planning, passion, contrition, etc and we issue verdicts accordingly—we convict and condemn not only on facts but based on perception of motivations, degree of cruelty and malice. I do not think the law needs to make provisions for hate crimes vs. “regular crimes” because society/media/juries will do it.

Sly wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

 
 

Lee - Neither of those are hate crimes. In both cases you are killing someone known to you, for any number of reasons. If you were an asshole who drove down to the gay bar to kill a fag, any fag, because they are a fag, it’s a hate crime. I realize this could be a subtle distinction, but the law is full of subtleties.

Sly - Hate Crimes legislation does nothing more than all a jury/judge to consider additional time or charges. It provides an avenue for the judge or jury to declare the crime “extra-heinous.”

jester wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

 
 

I just don’t think it should be considered extra heinous because it’s fueled by a prejudice. If I intend to kill, I plan it, and I succeed, I’ve committed 1st degree murder. I’m just not sure how important WHY I intended to commit murder is.

Lee wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

 
 

Lee - The law already allows us to make the distinction between motives. The “why” can make the difference between 10 years and life in prison. It can make the difference between rotting in prison and death by electrocution.

jester wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

 
 

I’m really disappointed with the amount of ignorance in the US about hate crimes - which should probably be more aptly called bias crimes.

First off, only in certain areas will a bias crime get you any additional time or severity in sentencing. Most places still only use it for statistical purposes. Some people just don’t want there to be concrete evidence of the issue.

What makes a bias crime more serious (and in my mind worthy of harsher sentencing) is that it is an attack on more than just the primary victim. It is an act of terror aimed at a segment of society. Burning a cross on a black persons lawn will make people mumble and wonder about white supremacy, who is next, where it this coming from. Generally speaking black people may feel more insecure, feel the need be more vigilant for their safety. Burning a cross on a white person’s lawn will just make people go huh?

Contrary to popular meme, hate crimes don’t give special protection to any group. Everyone has a race, religion (or lack of), sexual orientation. There have been plenty of prosecutions and convictions for hate crimes against white people.

As for rape being a hate crime - that’s kind of already built into the statute. Historically a wife could not be raped by her husband, and a man could not be raped.

Robguy’s last blog post…More Webs

Robguy wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

 
 

Robguy - You make an excellent point about the terrorism of a group of people. When a gay bashing or a racially motivated crime happens in a community it makes all members of that community worry about their own safety.

Thankfully the statutes on rape have begun to change to protect wives and men from the humiliation and pain of rape.

jester wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

 
 

“Lee said

So let’s say I’m a real asshole (I know, real stretch right) and I decided I’m going to get really drunk one night (again, way off base I know) and go down to the local bar and beat to death the man that’s been banging my girlfriend while I’m at work with a pool stick cause I hate him soooo much.

OR

I’m a real asshole that hates fags and I get drunk and go down to the bar and beat to death the gay guy that I know.

Same injuries, same cause of death…both cases I left the house intending to kill someone because I hate them

Which of these is a hate crime? Why not both?”

Because in the first scenario, you have only demonstrated yourself to be a danger to guys who bang your girlfriend. In the second, you’ve demonstrated that you’re a danger to any guy who is gay. I.e. he doesn’t have to do anything to you to incur your wrath.

The Watcher’s last blog post…Activist Judges

The Watcher wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

 
 

now THAT’S mildly convincing! Thank you Watcher!

Lee wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

 
 

The Watcher - I think the fact that in Lee’s scenario, since he knows the gay guy it’s not necessarily a hate motivated crime.

Lee - I know eventually you’ll come around to my way of thinking.:)

jester wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 4:25 pm

 
 

“Thankfully the statutes on rape have begun to change to protect wives and men from the humiliation and pain of rape.”

I thought that the laws were already changed, just that it’s hard to get wives and men to testify against their attackers, so they aren’t using the new laws that much.

Or am I just watching too much of Law and Order and imagining it?

Anyway, it would certainly be nice if rapists got an extra five years (for any reason really) if he had a type that he went after.

laughingattheslut’s last blog post…Nobody cares what you had for lunch, and nobody cares about art class either

laughingattheslut wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

 
 

laughingattheslut - The laws have not changed everywhere. I think it’s safe to say most rapists have a type.

jester wrote on February 20th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

 
 

[...] jester: laughingattheslut - The laws have not changed everywhere. I think it’s safe to say most rapists have a type. [...]

Jestertunes » Exclamation Point wrote on February 21st, 2008 at 1:07 am

 
 

@Jester and Lee

Just going back to the burka. What if, the only reason Lee is killing black women this week is for color matching purposes and Lee already has 3 complete white skin burka’s in the closet?

Is Lee a hater for his keen fashion sense? Must he be branded a hater for wanting variety in his wardrobe?

Dave wrote on February 21st, 2008 at 12:26 pm

 
 

Dave - That doesn’t make it a hate crime, that just makes it good fashion sense.

jester wrote on February 21st, 2008 at 1:36 pm

 

Say something already!