Since there were so many disparaging and negative comments being hurled my direction over at Dawn’s blog, I popped in and left what I hope to be my final comment on her site. (I’m not linking to it here, you can easily find her site by doing a search, or going a few posts back.) I’m posting my response here, so that you don’t feel compelled to click over to figure out what’s going on.
Here is my comment in its entirety:
// begin comment
First, let me say that I have only returned here due to the multitude of people calling me out by name.
Second, I wasn’t trying to start shit. I don’t need the “traffic boost” as it has been posited. I was merely expressing my opinion on my own site about the use of the term “gay” to mean “lame.” I didn’t call Dawn out. I didn’t refer to her by name (as I have done in other posts with patently homophobic materials posted). In fact, I noted that I didn’t believe the author was homophobic. Dawn “outed” herself as the author I referenced.
The attitudes in her comments were perplexing. She expressed complete astonishment that I could be offended by the use of the word to describe an inanimate object. As though describing the object made the word somehow magically clean and pristine and not at all related to homosexuals. Just where do you think the usage “evolved” from? Someone who was intentionally being offensive to homosexuals, that’s who. Continuing to use the word in that matter is perpetuating that intent.
Then Dawn posted another story in which she worries that a man singing a girl’s song would turn her band into the “gayest band ever” (how is that not related to homosexuals?) and how she did not want to be associated with a “GAY BAND” and that it would make them a bunch of “FAG HAGS” [Dawn's emphasis]. This is a point that nearly all of the commenters here have forgotten or chosen to overlook. There is NO question that these comments are offensive AND homophobic.
If you think that an atmosphere where “gay” is used to mean “lame” isn’t hurtful or doesn’t lead to more anti-gay sentiment, just look at some of the comments left here. I have been called “fucking queer” (which Dawn found funny). I have been called thin skinned. I’ve read references to “homos” and “lesbos.” That’s really inclusive and welcoming.
I want to address a few of the major points that Dawn and other commenters have made:
Kimi quoted some BBC report stating that “gay need not be offensive to homosexuals.” So if I’m understanding this point, the BBC is the authority for dictating how I (and other homosexuals) am supposed to feel about the use of “gay” in a disparaging manner? They certainly didn’t consult me on this. I don’t know of anyone who WAS consulted.
Later, Dawn stated that she shouldn’t be held responsible for using “a phrase I didn’t invent.” So by this reasoning, Dawn should be able to use the words, “nigger,” “kike,” “wetback,” “spic,” “faggot,” “dyke,” “chink,” “jap,” “wop,” and “retard” with impunity? I’m certain she didn’t invent those words either, but they are on some magic list of words that a civilized community has determined are offensive and taboo. How did those words get on that list? They got there because the respective disparaged groups stood up and said, “Stop it.” And civilized thinking people understood the harm those words were doing and agreed to stop using them.
Dawn also said, “I bet if I said keytars were ‘retarded’ instead of ‘gay’, he wouldn’t have two posts dedicated to me because using the word ‘retard’ isn’t one of his ‘buttons’.” Whether or not “retard” is one of my buttons (guess what, I have developmentally challenged people in my family) is a moot point. Had someone mentioned that they found your use of “retard” offensive, I would completely agree with them. It is offensive, for mostly the SAME REASONS I find “gay” = “lame” offensive.
In that same response block, she said, “maybe Jester should write a letter to Matt Damon too and bash him on his blog…LOL.” If I considered Matt Damon an “internet friend” as I considered Dawn to be prior to the last couple of days, I would immediately let him know that I was offended. I wasn’t SINGLING you out UNTIL your second post which, I’ve already explained, WAS patently bigoted.
The vast majority of the rest of the comments here are along the lines of “fuck him if he can’t take a joke” and “over-react much?” My original post was not an over-reaction… it was simply a post examining the use of the word and my determination that its usage EVEN IN THAT CONTEXT is offensive to me. I was offended that someone who I genuinely liked and respected could be so arrogant and self-righteous in her response to my offense.
I have never asked for an apology. I don’t care about an apology… but the fact that there is a complete REFUSAL to acknowledge that the word is offensive and an insistence that because “everyone else uses it” makes it all right is stunningly ridiculous and arrogant.
Ask yourselves if your opinions would change if you were the victim of oppression and discrimination and hatred and violence simply because of a characteristic you can’t change. You’re lying to yourself if you think they wouldn’t.
// end comment
Don’t think that I’m saying this is the end all, be all of the discussion. The debate and open discussion that has taken place here has brought me a lot of enjoyment over the past couple of days. It has lead to a lot of conversations with people away from my blog.
Social issues and etymology and frank discussions about human behavior are all very fascinating to me.
Watching people show their arrogant self-righteous bigotry and then deny that they are bigoted in a public forum: priceless.
This is my last comment because this discussion has gotten beyond stupid at this point. Your cronies are calling me a ‘fucking retard’ at my blog. If they don’t see how hypocritical that is, I’m not even going to give them the 30 seconds it takes to respond to their ridiculous comments. HOWEVER, I’m not offended by them calling me a retard. I’m just saying their hypocrites. I think people choose to be offended at certain things just so they can enjoy the soap opera. Fortunately I’m not one of those people.
Anyway, if you had actually read any of my comments on my own blog before you wrote this ‘novella’ response above, you would see that I DO understand that the phrase ‘fucking gay’ could be offensive. I NEVER STATED THAT ‘FUCKING GAY’ COULD NEVER BE TAKEN OFFENSIVELY. I don’t personally understand or agree with it, but I do see how it could be offensive. Just like when I say something is ‘fucking retarded’. That could certainly be offensive too. Does that mean I’m never going to use the phrase in the future? HELL NO.
If you want class, go visit Dooce. Don’t visit a blog known for being no holds barred and never sugarcoating a damn thing and then start shit when you can’t handle it.
You’re having a debate with someone who can’t connect the dots. It’s a waste of your energy, and probably giving her a bad headache (those 2 brain cells bouncing around inside)! She’s obviously not Asian, most likely a Pollock. Then again, she just might be a dumb c*nt. Have a great weekend.
so did dawn really just say i know i can be offensive, i don’t care if i offend my friends and just don’t read my blog because i don’t mind offending you? wow. talk about rude.
oh, and diamondistwerny? why ya gotta associate dawn with being polish? i’m polish and offended that dawn would be polish and giving us a bad name. : )
I have no idea what’s going on, but I like the blog design. Lori from hahnathome.com referred me to this site and said you were local, so I’ll add you to my blogroll and maybe I can pick up on a few things left and right
webmiztris – The person who called you a “fucking retard” isn’t someone I know. It’s possible they came from my site, but that hardly makes them my “crony.” Every time you conceded at all that the term could be construed as offensive, you added the caveat that “it shouldn’t be because everyone else uses it.” Just like you’ve done here.
Your insistence on being offensive as a gimmick is pathetic.
If you want to be viewed as a “kick ass chick” who dares to buck the system and turn heads and make waves, try standing up for people who are in an oppressed minority in your BFE area of the country.
Continuing to use phrases that you know are offensive really doesn’t make you look like some cool edgy comedienne. It makes you look like a complete asshole.
diamondfistwerny – It’s a shame that she’s unable to grasp this concept. She chooses to pretend that she is some Rosa Parks figure standing up against the big bad forces of political correctness. While I understand your ironic use of the Asian and Polish stereotypes, I’m afraid that there are others who won’t get it.
Hello – I think that’s what she’s been saying all along. I don’t think diamondfistwerny was serious. He was using other stereotypes to illustrate the thought process. At least that’s how I’m reading it.
Matthew – Welcome! I like local bloggers hanging out here! You came in the middle of an interesting discussion, so enjoy catching up! Hope to see you around!
That’s exactly what I was doing Jester! Bad Idea, I suppose! Those folks are annoying, just ignore them
Dawm is a Bajingo. that’s my first name calling of the discussion. Given my history, I’m surprised it took me that long.
diamondfistwerny – I’m sure when hello gets back online she’ll get it.
othurme – You have been exhibiting a surprising modicum of restraint.
Diamond- I love the part about the brain cells..haha.
Jester- ~hug~
Branden – Could you do that again… with a little more force and a lot less clothing?
I think this is the post that forced me to write my post. I was struggling with keeping my mouth shut or blasting off. I couldn’t keep my mouth shut. I’m way too opinionated and bitchy for that. Oops.
I said in my comment over there (which I’m sure will draw boos and hisses from the peanut gallery) that the comment thread went from “gay”=”lame” to “gay”=”lame”=”gay men”=”bad” and that it was getting ugly in that place. And the people who were saying those things, as well as that shit about being anal because of getting fucked in the ass and gays are weird, were encouraged. So much for the assertion that “lame” doesn’t actually describe “people”.
Anyway, thanks for stopping by.
Jennyjinx – Welcome! I love it when people make my point for me. I pointed out how the progression of the language was dangerous, there were protests that it didn’t work that way at all, and then ultimately they proved that it does. My original post was very respectful and I thought innocuous. It apparently struck a nerve and in trying so hard to prove that they aren’t homophobic, they have shown that they are. I hope that they take this as an opportunity to examine their true thoughts on the subject… but I doubt they give much weight to things like thought and compassion.
Ok, after catching up again, I see that she is signing off as a blogger, or something like that. I personally hope that this issue isn’t the purpose, and if so, then maybe it’s time to go. She says it’s something personal and I only hope it is and has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.
With that said, the name calling by the commenters, not the hosts, got out of hand. If I remember correcty (and forgive me if I don’t, there are a lot of comments at both sites) neither host ever stooped to the name calling. These sites are great for debates, opinions, and thoughts. When people choose to make it personal with name calling, the entire debate becomes useless. I agree that she should have said “I didn’t mean to offend, and I’ll try to refrain from using that term in that manner again,” but does she need to apologize, no. And Jester admits that he doesn’t want that. I don’t think he expected this to go to the extreme it has. I feel his original post was meant to bring awareness, not the drama that ensued. Although I’ve enjoyed some of the comments left and agree with some left at each site, most were taken too far. I hope this doesn’t affect either post in a negative way.
What I do hope for is that this has brought awareness to those that needed, made someone smile that needed it, and pisses off the ignorant. If you became pissed, don’t be mad at me, you’re the ignorant one, and I mean that in the literal sense. Keep an open mind, try to learn from every situation you come across and don’t get mad, it serves no purpose and only breeds negativity.
Thank you Jester for this post, it helped a lot of people I’m sure. Love and miss ya!
Toby – I have heard that Dawn has decided to take a break. I haven’t seen the post yet, as I *do* have a life outside of the web. If it’s got anything to do with this “kerfuffle” it’s her own fault. She’s decided to play the victim, even though she herself launched the attack. Whatever. One less site spouting negativity and allowing intolerance and hatred to breed.
I try very hard not to resort to name calling. I prefer to let others see the ridiculousness of other’s arguments and let them decide the perfect classifications for themselves… alternatively, I let Othurme step up and ring the “bigot” bell.
I think you’re both hawt.
“Watching people show their arrogant self-righteous bigotry and then deny that they are bigoted in a public forum: priceless.”
Watching others blather on about how horrible Dawn is is also priceless, Jester. Especially some of the ones I have known for a long time and in whom I have seen the worst.
This whole thing was unfortunate, but it also showed me there’s no end of perfect people in the world.
Mark – My comment was directed at plenty of other people besides Dawn. I’m not blathering on about how horrible Dawn is. I made my point.
The back and forth has been about the substance of my argument…
Oh wait, that’s not quite true, since no one has really defended the statements that she made in her second post which prompted my giving her the Flaming Fuck You award. Everyone that has come here has focused on the “gay” = “lame” post which WAS NEVER AIMED IN HER DIRECTION and wasn’t calling her bigoted.
Jester, I caution you against commenting at Mark’s site. He’s got a track record of editing comments for which he doesn’t care. As a matter of fact, he did so with one gentleman, directing the man’s link to a gay site, which Mark thought would be oh-so funny and humiliating.
Says Mark:
Personal inventory indeed.
Jennyjinx – I trust that Mark will take the comment in the spirit in which it was meant. If not, I hope he picks a good porn site… I’d hate to be linked to mediocre porn.
gees, man..does your life revolve around me? a week later and we’re still talking about it?
and I’ve already defended myself re: the fag hag reference at Carlos’ (Alamo Land) site. Since you obviously have no life outside this topic, I thought you’ve been keeping up.
webmiztris – I think I hurt myself rolling my eyes. Let’s look at your “defense” that you posted just this morning on Carlos’s site.
You know, I really think this speaks for itself. I can’t make you look any more stupid and offensive than you have just done yourself.
The only danger “the gayest band” of “fag hags” would face in your area, would be posed by you and people of your ilk.
Dawn, it seems your life revolves around this too if you’re still running around defending yourself on other sites.
I haven’t been to her site in a couple days. Why is she still going on about this crap?
Jester,
I mention that only because of his assertion of personal inventory. I remember distinctly that I questioned why it was supposed to be humiliating. Still no answer to that.
Othurme – And doing a very poor job of it, I might add.
diamondfistwerny – Apparently because she’s been forced to examine her own beliefs and come to terms with that fact that she’s not funny, and isn’t nearly as enlightened as she claims.
Jennyjinx – And you’re not sitting there holding your breath waiting?
I did for a while. But then I passed out. So, I guess I could’ve missed it.:)
Jester – I wasn’t referring to you about “blathering”. I was referring to others elsewhere who seem to think the sun rises and sets on their perfection. This involved you and Dawn. You have a right to be hurt, and I recognize that.
I made my amends to you, by which I stand.
As for others commenting here about me, they can blather on ad nauseum. I really don’t give a fuck what they think.
Mark – Gotcha. I love the word blather.
Okay, Jester, good deal. Just want to make sure WE’RE good. Thanks.
and it appears evident to me that YOU’RE the stupid one. YOU are the one who thinks that if people don’t feel the same way re: the issue as you do, they’re idiots. I, on the other hand, can agree to disagree. I’m sure you’d love it if the entire world agreed with you, but it’s pretty obvious from the bazillion comments at my site that they do not.
PS. Maybe you should write to Jon Stewart. He called Adam Sandler “fucking gay” last night. I guess he gets special rights since he’s a ‘comedian’? Give me a fucking break.
Is it ok if I start using the word Webmiztris to mean meltdown?
othurme – absolutely! and since I’m not an uptight anal freak, I wouldn’t even be upset OR offended over it! Because I CHOOSE not to be. HOW LIBERATING A FEELING IT IS! But I know you people wouldn’t understand.
I’m official gayed out.
I’m picking up my toys and going home.
PS. Jester, if there any way you can ‘un’ sign me up from getting these emails from your posts? I feel like I’m being spammed to death, but worse, because it’s even more annoying.
webmiztris – No, people who don’t feel the same way I do aren’t idiots… People who refuse to understand or admit that using offensive speech encourages an atmosphere of hatred and intolerance are idiots. People who excuse their offensive behavior on their geography or upbringing are idiots. People who continue to open their mouths making their situation look even worse are idiots.
The fact that you have a “bazillion” comments on your site that seem to support you is not impressive to me in the least. Big surprise, there are a lot of people out there who are homophobic or otherwise unenlightened enough to believe that it’s perfectly ok to be offensive to a group to which you don’t belong. I’m shocked. You know who else has a lot of followers? Hitler. The KKK. Focus on the Family… the list goes on and on.
I haven’t seen the Daily Show you’re talking about, but something tells me that since Adam Sandler just released a gay themed movie that the context is completely different.
It’s stunning to me that you don’t understand the difference between a comedian examining and giving a commentary on offensive words and stereotypes and an idiot spouting off offensive terms for the sake of being “edgy” or in misguided attempts at humor.
Othurme – Surely you can think of a better use of “webmiztris” than meltdown. You’re not even trying.
webmiztris – Just so we understand each other, anyone who feels the word “gay” as a substitute for “lame” or “stupid” is offensive is an uptight anal freak? How is that not homophobic? I’m sure you’re feeling quite liberated by outing yourself as an offensive bigot. It must suck to keep that kind of bile and vitriol under wraps. I wonder if there’s an organization for those who are just coming out as pinheaded assholes? Parents and Friends of Bigot, Homophobes, Racists, and Other Assholes: PFBHROA. You could join your local chapter, I’m sure there is one since you’re so adamant that your community is so backwards.
Please don’t forget to pick up your pitchfork, rope, and torch on your way out.
You can unsubscribe from this thread any time you like by clicking on “manage your subscriptions” just under the comment form on this post. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Jester Sez: I’m sure that some of you are going to think that I am completely over-reacting. I don’t think I am. I don’t do business with companies with poor gay rights histories, and I will not spend any effort continuing to participate in forums where I am obviously considered a second-class citizen.”
Jeezus, what a pitiful wank. I think you probably just need a big ol’ hug and some other pointless cause to flail away at. You don’t happen to be a negro, do you? You ought to check, ’cause if you are you get to be nearly as offended nearly as fast at nearly as pointless a bunch of issues as twinks ever were.
– AD -
(Or is “flail” too gay? Perhaps “flutter”? Golly gee, this is hard. But not because of the gay talk. I think it was all the porn sites I was hitting earlier. Or maybe not. OH CRAP. Maybe I’M a fag. Crap. Now I’M offended.)
Mark hasn’t mentioned that it’s the fault of the Jews yet (and this is my favourite part of any thread that he contributes to) so can we carry on until he does?
Cheezy – I’m hoping we can keep the conversation from going in a direction like that. I’m not familiar with Mark or his site. I’ve not had the time to read much, but I do know that he had the decency to write and apologize to me for the things said at that other site. Keeping things in perspective here would be ideal.
Actually Mark did mention that, unless it was deleted by the blogmaster. Being someone who grew up with a very strong Jewish faith; it pissed me off. But if I were to go off on that as well as the gay=lame thing; then it would’ve looked like I just wanted to bitch and fight!
diamondfistwerny – I have only had to delete comments once. I must have overlooked it, if it’s here… could it have been on another site? I know things are flying all over the web…
Asbestos Dust – I want to apologize to you for your comment getting delayed in the Spam filter. I’m sure the combination of “wank,” “negro,” “twinks,” “porn” and “fag” was just enough to trigger the mechanism that keeps racist homophobic ignorant neo-Nazi’s from just willy-nilly running over my site. I do hope you’ll forgive me for preventing you from exhibiting your repulsive views as quickly as possible. I think it’s great that you and Dawn are so close. It’s important to have comrades-in-arms that you can trust and exchange links with… and that you can find a community in which your views are valued and celebrated. It gives me the warm fuzzies. Let me know when you’re holding your next bake sale.
Asbestos Dust- Um………………………………… I am so confused…is anybody else confused about that post?
Branden – I’m not confused. One look at his website tells you everything you could possibly need to know.
Jester: Sure, no worries.
Diamondfistwerny: Damn, he did say it was the fault of the Jews and I missed it??? Arrrgh!
Wow, that Asbestos Dust guy is a real winner, isn’t he? And that site of his – very informative and open minded. He’s clearly a well-rounded, intelligent, not at all gutter trash blogger. . .
Sorry, I just ran out of sarcasm.
Avitable – He’s an equal opportunity offender. I mean on his home page, there are clear neo-nazi symbols, homophobic terms, and references to Chinese people as both “Chinks” and “slants.” Oh yeah… with a link to my favorite website included.
Say it ain’t so… if you have run out of sarcasm, we’re all in a whole lot of trouble!
Ahhh, crazy neo-nazi ultra conservatives. Can’t live with them, can’t send them all into space to die a lonely frozen death.
Avitable – *phew* You found more. The world is right again.
I know – it was a crazy few seconds there.
Sorries! I misunderstood the sequence/context of the comment. The reference about Jews from Mark was under comments on Webmiztris’s blog, not yours. On the same sequence of comments where annie made reference to you being anal because of butt-fucking.