If you’ve been following along, you’ve seen quite a lively discussion taking place on my post, That’s So Gay. I encourage everyone to read and weigh in on the issue, I’m enjoying the debate.
Webmiztris outed herself as the author of the post that inspired my rant. Here’s what she had to say:
LOL, that’s me you’re talking ’bout…ha! yes, I use the phrase ‘fucking gay’ all the time. I honestly can’t think of any better way to describe a keytar, for example, other than to say it’s “fucking gay”. Lame or stupid isn’t quite right. However, it has nothing to do with actual gay people. It’s like ‘fag’ meaning a gay person and ‘fag’ meaning a cigarette. No relation whatsoever.
I responded with:
You’re not making me feel any better about not calling you out on this. Do you not realize that you are using the word “gay” to mean something that is even lower on the scale than “lame” or “stupid?” This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. It’s subversive. It puts the idea out there that gay = negative. It doesn’t matter what context you are trying to use it in… it’s offensive and hurtful. There is a relation between “fag” for gay person and cigarette. They are both things that are burned. Frankly, I can’t believe I’m even having this conversation with someone who I thought had an evolved intellect.
And then I clicked over to see her latest posting. She’s excited about holding auditions for some female musicians for the new band she’s forming, Pussywhipped.
The post ends with this following gem:
There’s no doubt about it – everyone is pushing for an all-girl (or at least mostly girl) band and they want to see it happen! Well, except for one guy on this local musician forum we frequent. He thinks that requesting a female vocalist for our band is ‘sexist’. Is that not the dumbest thing you ever heard? I wrote back and told him, “Do you REALLY think a guy should be singing in a band that’s going to be called Pussywhip?” I mean, this guy would be singing Pink, Hole, Avril, Kelly Clarkson, Joan Jett…. Ugh! That would be the gayest band imaginable! We want a GIRL BAND. Not a GAY BAND with a bunch of ‘FAG HAGS’ on guitars. Gah!
I have linked to Webmiztris dozens of times. I have bestowed awards upon her. I have have participated at her site for a long time. And I now feel completely disgusted and almost betrayed.
I left this comment on her post:
Since I’ve played in bands nearly my whole life, I could probably offer you some great advice on the audition process and what it’s like to be in a real performing group. But since you obviously have a problem with gays and insist on being offensive, I’m going to just keep my mouth shut and retract every nice thing I’ve ever said about you.
I’m sure that some of you are going to think that I am completely over-reacting. I don’t think I am. I don’t do business with companies with poor gay rights histories, and I will not spend any effort continuing to participate in forums where I am obviously considered a second-class citizen.
And I’ll bestow my final award and link to Webmiztris.
I’ll take my GAY BAND that makes a shitload of money and go elsewhere. I’ll take my lame ass to the nearest music store and buy a keytar to go along with it.
For a very long time, people have used the word “bitch” to describe a woman, (or as a verb for a woman speaking.) It is a practice that teaches young girls that they are less than men. It is a completely demeaning, degrading, and insensitive term. People who are more evolved do not, (or at least try not to,) use the word “bitch,” because they know it is wrong, and never ok to do so. It is the same with the “n-word,” and it is the same with the term “so gay.” It is never ok to use these terms because they are oppressive terms that hurt young people and piss off older people. If you want to continue to mindlessly use these terms, then you go right ahead and be a fucking ignorant idiot. (I’m not nearly as nice as Paul.) Ignorance can sometimes be forgiven, but once you’ve been taught, if you continue to act ignorant, it is no longer forgivable!
You know, I didn’t really get it until your last post. I mean I agreed, just I didn’t feel it. Then I read “second class citizen” and it all came into focus.
I am a third generation citizen, my grandparents came her in the 1920′s and became citizens, my parents and I are natural born US citizens. I speak English and Spanish fluently, I am as AMERICAN as they come, I love apple pie, for crying out loud!
I wear the hippest fashions, I have KILLER shoes, I don’t have an accent, I don’t paint in my eyebrows and wear gansta brown lipstick nor do I wear panchos to the mercado. Yet people still call me a Mexican, and when they say it, they say it in such a way, like “sorry, you people are taking over our country and disgracing it sort of way”.
And I am sooo like you–I have a ton of beaner jokes, I can tell them and laugh with the best of them.
You know, I’ve finally come to terms with the fact that I can’t be white enough or the white people or brown enough for the brown.
So no, you are not overreacting, and I’m sorry I didn’t get it until now. But I get it and I’m with ya.
Jeesh, you weren’t overreacting, but maybe I was!
I like you both, so I’m staying out of this. I will say that I think you’re overreacting a little bit, and I think Dawn could have been a bit more diplomatic in her comment on here, because, in the end, she’s not a hater in any way, and you seem to be able to take things in context very well.
UMB – You’re right. You’re not as nice as I am.
Princess Victoria – It steams me that people are so bleeding ignorant. Stupid Americans who have no cultural identity are so threatened by anyone who does. What do we have? Turkey in November and fireworks in July. God forbid we embrace other cultures and learn something about the other 90% of the world. If I were laying on the couch and someone said, “Stop being so Mexican” it would be exactly the same… using a term that you use to self-identify to mean something derogatory and demeaning (in this case lazy or shiftless). You would be well within your rights to punch them in the crotch. You’re not overreacting. The real problem here is that no one else seems to react enough… they excuse it.
Avitable – Her comments here coupled with her latest post in which she is clearly using the term again (several times) to describe something she clearly has an intense hatred of leads me to the conclusion that my “lameness” is unwelcome. She is making the assumption that a guy who is singing a girl’s song must be GAY and that would make her a band of “FAG HAGS” none of which she finds pleasant. These comments are actually even more disparaging than the comments that started this whole mess. I’m not in anyway trying to lead a mass exodus from her site. I imagine I’m probably her only out gay reader (that I can tell, anyway) and I’m sure that my withdrawal of an endorsement won’t affect her negatively in any way.
Don’t think I’m going to be upset with you for continuing to read and interact with her.
It’s like Wal-Mart. I refuse to shop there but I’m not going to picket the store.
I’m confused now…is it or isn’t ok to use the term “butt-fucking pansy”?
othurme – It’s only ok to use it if you are referring to yourself. Otherwise, no.
Geez, my bad. You don’t have to be all british about it!
It works, right? British is going to catch on.
othurme – umm.. still going with the no.. that’s not going to catch on… I’d fully support a different word, though… miztris perhaps?
UMB Speaks! You don’t speak often but when you do you say some of the most intelligent things. You should speak up more.
Jester: you should design the Flaming Fuck You Award. So when you do hand it out people can place it on their blog like a badge to be proud of
Grr…. I will breath and let this go. I am just really taken by that kind of stupidity as in the “webmiztris is stupid” as in…….
-adjective-
1.lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2.characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3.tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.
4.annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio.
*wink*
Daniel – Isn’t it amazing? UMB almost never reads my blog. I don’t know what prompted him to log in today… I hadn’t even mentioned all this to him. And I’ve considered making that badge… but I figure it won’t be truly appreciated.
Branden – I’m never going to dictionary.com again. I’ll just call you.:)
I did read your previous post and I didn’t comment because I wasn’t quite sure what to say. Firstly, I want to say that I completely agree with you.
But.
The problem is I have been guilty of using ‘that’s gay’ meaning ‘naff’ or ‘a bit lame’ or saying things like ‘don’t be such a hom’ if someone is being a scaredy-cat (I would also use ‘don’t be a girl’ – is this as bad? stupid things to say, sure, but not meant to be offensive to gays or girls).
My brother is gay and has had a really tough time over the years and I am generally completely intolerant of bigotry. I recently had to call a girlfriend on something bigoted that she said ‘as a joke’ because it offended me so much. I made the point to her that hearing such offensive comments (no matter how supposedly innocent they were – although I can’t see how it is meant any way other than offensive) was distressing to me on two levels. One – I am offended by the actually intolerance/hatred/disgust (whatever is conveyed by the comment). Two – I feel guilty that I don’t do something about it (i.e. tell the person not to say things like that). I feel I am letting my brother down everytime I hear a ‘fag’ comment.
So why do I think it is ok to use these childish phrases? Well, I suppose the answer is I now don’t. I am glad I read your post. It is something I have never felt comfortable hearing from others because it always made me wonder if they really thought being gay was synonomous with being crap/below standard/less than normal etc. Since I knew I didn’t feel this way, I always felt I had the right to say things. What I didn’t really appreciate is how by perpetuating a usage in that way, it made it OK and socially acceptable. Which makes me no better than those people that really mean it.
jester, do you have high blood pressure? just from reading some of the comments on these few posts my blood races. i can only imagine how you must feel. i’m not gay (meaning: homosexual), however i can appreciate that hearing something you use to identify who you are used to mean something negative would upset you. (i’m mostly irish and polish so you know i have heard my share of dumb polock jokes and drunk irish jokes…i have a sense of humor and can appreciate them. but if a “friend” would call someone a “polock” instead of a dumbass i would be offended and sure as hell would tell my friend that i was offended.)
as avi does, at first i thought you were overreacting, oh how i wanted you to be overreacting because i enjoyed reading dawn’s blog, but now after reading dawn’s posts on her site & her comments here i am convinced that you are not overreacting at all. in fact, more of us, gay or not, need to react. strongly. loudly.
please know that i will never be “politically correct”, however i will do my damnedest to avoid being truly rude and offensive.
thanks for opening up this can of worms.
On a post that is espousing the elimination of negative stereotypes, one should check their “hypocrite” coat at the door:
Quoted from Jester above:
“It steams me that people are so bleeding ignorant. Stupid Americans who have no cultural identity are so threatened by anyone who does. Turkey in November and fireworks in July. God forbid we embrace other cultures and learn something about the other 90% of the world.”
I guess all of us have our prejudges.
Jester, I don’t thing Dawn meant anything derogatory to gay people when she made that blog entry. Of course, you’re entitled to your opinion.
sigh.
I don’t think it’s over reacting at all. We live in a society where words are now weapons. When do we start to draw the line between what’s offensive and deemed funny. The racial slurs? the gay slurs? mental issues? I think anytime a reference implies in any way that lowers the significance or value of a person it’s a bad thing. It has become way to common to think it’s OK or even hip to use words that disrespect some person or class of people without any care or concern with the effect that has on our society. OK am off my soapbox for now.
i’m not getting kimi’s argument. it wasn’t said that ALL americans behave a certain way, just the stupid ones.
It was my interpretation of the the comment that all Americans are stupid, because the only cultural identity that we relate can with are fireworks on the 4th of July and turkey at Thanksgiving.
My point is, is that if your goal is to educate people on wrongs of a stereotype, to do that by insulting another group negates your argument.
Kimi, maybe all of us Americans are stupid, because that’s not the same thing at all. He’s not educating people on a stereotype – he’s saying that equating “gay” with “lame” is extremely negative reinforcement that should be prevented.
me thinks kimi misread jester’s statement. i didn’t see that ALL americans are stupid. only that stupid americans with no cultural identity are stupid enough to relate only to the 4th of july, etc.
honestly, no matter how many comments and clarifications are written, some people will apparently never see that words are powerful.
Kimi: I understand your point and in theory I tend to agree with you. Using stereotypes in a negative way when you are arguing against the same thing is a poor way to make an argument. I think there is a small difference though in Jesters argument. Since he is an American he is being critical of a group he belongs too. This is how growth happens.
Point taken…As mentioned earlier, I’m positive that Dawn meant no offense to any group when she made her post.
End of subject (at least for me), I’m a lurker, rarely a commenter. I’m moving on now…:)
I enjoy this blog and Dawn’s. (That’s my official disclosure statement)
1 – I think Jester had a valid point in, basically, pointing out that “hey, people get lazy with their language, and I know you didn’t mean it that way… but that’s offensive”.
2 – At least that’s how I took your post. But, in a different light and including the proceeding comments, it could definitely be interrupted that you are “overreacting” and saying that someone who uses the word “gay” to mean anything other than homosexual is a “gay basher”.
3 – I don’t think Dawn is a gay basher. I think it’s very clear that when she uses that word that is not at ALL what she means.
4 – That being said, sometimes what we mean needs to be set aside for a minute if someone says to us “this is how I take it” – and at least CONSIDER that position. I was really surprised, in all honesty, that Dawn dismissed the idea so quickly.
In conclusion, Jester’s being a big ol’ baby and Dawn’s being a big ol’ bitch. You both need to stop being retarded and kiss and make up.
And send me hate mail.
Kimi – I don’t she meant to offend anyone. The fact is that she did and doesn’t care. I think that’s more of the issue.
Kimi – You’re right. I’m prejudiced against “stupid Americans who have no cultural identity.”
Chuck – You are making my point for me, Chuck. If she meant nothing derogatory to gay people (which I assert in my original post) she should have chosen different language. How you can read her second post and not read it as offensive to gays is beyond me.
Gina – Do you need an aspirin? Really… it’s not any trouble at all… I’m getting some for myself anyway….
Eslocura – Welcome! Your soapbox is more than welcome here. Language is powerful and off the cuff comments can hurt more than intentional, well-planned diatribes.
hello – Right. It’s just a tactic that some debaters try to use to disarm a discussion… find evidence of hypocrisy.
Kimi – I wasn’t referring to all Americans. Clearly there are many many Americans who DO have a cultural identity who I was obviously not talking about. There are also many many Americans who don’t have a real cultural identity, but who are sensitive to, or otherwise embrace the identities of others…. I was also not talking about them… There are also smart and compassionate Americans with no cultural identity who know better than use hurtful language to disparage others, not talking about them either… leaving the Stupid Americans with no cultural identity…
Avitable – Your doctorate is well-earned.
hello – right.
Daniel – I may be wrong, but I’d like to think I don’t fall into the Stupid American with no cultural identity category…
Kimi – I’m glad you delurked. Believe it or not, dissenting opinions are welcome here.
Miss Britt – You always have the nicest summations. You are right in that my post was not calling Dawn out as a bigot. It was pointing out how the choice of words made her appear. It was only after her response and subsequent posts where it became more evident that though she says she doesn’t, she is in fact harboring prejudices against gay people. Her refusal to acknowledge that her language was offensive puts salt in the wound. I never asked for an apology. I don’t want an apology. I want others to understand the harm that their seemingly innocuous words can cause.
Othurme – right… her response was very nonchalant and ‘take-it-or-leave-it.’ Which is what I’ve done.
My point was not to say you were a dumb American, but to say as an American you have the duty to be critical of your own people. And while you might not be stupid and lacking culture, I was defending your right to make such statements.
This discussion could only be more interesting, if there were like five of these going on at the same time. Jester, call out five people on your blogroll for stupid stuff they’ve said. C’mon do it right now. This will be awesome.
Daniel – I’m just giving you shit.:) I know what you mean.
Sticks and stones brothers and sisters…sticks and stones. I’ve heard gays say worse things to and about each other.
Now let’s get back to curing cancer and fostering world peace.
I remember when GAY used to mean happy. Why is it that the Homosexuals get to usurp words and symbols and make them their own and when we use one that isn’t “correct” in their eyes, they get all pissy and try and make us feel like we’re lower class citizens?
I want the fucking rainbow back, I want gay to mean happy, not cock swallowing or rug munching, and I would like to see all of the Homos act more like my brother who is gay AND has a sense of humor about his preference for blowing guys instead of some sort of militant cock wrangler who feels that an all gay planet would be the greatest thing since water based lube.
Relax, have a cocktail, and shut the fuck up, you give me a headache.
Dude, get over it, ok? It’s a term. If she has said it was queer then I would have been on your side, but she said something that only a person of your “style” would taken the wrong way.
Beside, music is about making music, not money so don’t use that in your fight against W. Kind of makes you look gay, dude.
Othurme and Fish – I somehow managed to respond to your comments on the other post. Sorry about that.
Nightmare – Classy. Apparently this is what passes as one of Webmiztris’s “cronies.” She should be so proud.
MikeM – I’d love to hear your explanation how using “queer” negatively is any different than using “gay” negatively.
You got it all wrong Jester. I’m not one of W cronies. I’m a realest. I accept words have several meaning and I don’t have to call the PC police every time I don’t like they way people they use them.
I don’t call Jenny Crag and cry to her every time someone calls me fat. I don’t call the KKK every time an African American calls me a cracker and I certainly don’t call Dr Phil can cry when someone calls me gay.
Sexuality is something you need to keep to yourself anyway. I don’t care if you are gay, bi or straight. Keep it to yourself and the nay-sayers won’t have anything to say. You are giving people a reason do dislike you.
Be happy with it and move on. Don’t expect the world understand it. If you do, you will never be happy because you will always be fighting for something that is never going to change. At least in our lifetimes.
If you don’t like the term “gay” used in that way, then don’t use it. But don’t expect the world to conform to it.
As for people using words to describe something (like what W said). If you were comfortable with who you are, what other people say wouldn’t matter. You have to accept yourself before others will accept you.
No hard feelings J. Just being a realist.
I’ve known Dawn for a while and have many friends like her, straight and gay, and you wont believe the shit we spew about each other when we’re all together which we laugh off.
Yesterday we was poking fun at jesters!
Life is short, can’t we all just get along?
Jester: “It steams me that people are so bleeding ignorant. Stupid Americans who have no cultural identity are so threatened by anyone who does. Turkey in November and fireworks in July. God forbid we embrace other cultures and learn something about the other 90% of the world.”
Not all Americans are stupid, you know. There’s stupid people everywhere you go, the world is not immune.
It seems not everyone can read the whole discussion before speaking.
MikeM – My parents have seen IN THEIR LIFETIME the civil rights movement of the 60′s bust segregation. They have seen women’s liberation and radical changes in the way minorities are treated.
In my lifetime I have seen the “Russian Commies” become allies.
Don’t tell me that in my lifetime I will not see equality for gays. If I were the type to let people I like or respect continue to use offensive terms that oppress and belittle others, that might be true. But as long as I have the ability to speak up and join others who refuse to give up fighting we will see those changes sooner than you think.
I am completely comfortable with myself. What people say matters because there are others out there who are struggling with their own sexuality and who are raising kids who are struggling with their identities. And it is my responsibility as a comfortable gay man to do what I can to ease that journey.
Dear AL – The jokes you make in private are none of my concern. The words you use in public are.
Dear AL – Yeah. Umm.. keep reading. I’ve covered this already.
Othurme – Not only can they not read the whole discussion, they apparently also have a problem with comprehension.
J, the biggest mistake the gay movement ever made was comparing their struggle to the African America and Women’s equality movements. How dare you even suggest that your right to your own sexuality be compared to slavery, death and racism. Where you stick your member is something that should be kept behind closed doors, gay or otherwise. Skin color and gender are on the other side of the spectrum.
As for love, you can love who you want, but don’t compare the gay movement to something that is centered around race or equality in the workplace. Gay is not a choice on a job application, or loan application. Stop telling the world. The world doesn’t want to know your sexual preference.
And as for the terms used. The gay movement took the words gay and fag (Happy and cigarette). So if someone uses them to describe something that the word was made for and you don’t like it, it becomes your problem, not theirs.
It’s just a word. It only has meaning if you give it one.
kate1976 – I’m so sorry, I didn’t intentionally skip your comment! Yours was one of the first that I saw when I woke up yesterday, but somehow missed when answering. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!
I think your brother is extremely lucky to have you. I completely understand feeling guilty about not doing something about the everyday intolerance we encounter. Where you feel you are letting your brother down, I feel I’m letting down my friends and myself and in some respects future generations of gay kids.
The important point that Dawn and her colorful supporters have been missing is one that you have nailed on the head: Even though YOU know you don’t feel that way, the people you are communicating that term to don’t necessarily know that. And to continue to use disparaging terms is to perpetuate the underlying negativity and make it socially acceptable.
Forgive me?
MikeM – How dare you suggest that centuries of derision, assassination, abuse, second-class citizenship, unequal protection under the law, and discrimination endured by homosexuals is not similar to the abuses committed against racial minorities? Skin color, gender, and YES EVEN SEXUALITY are genetically determined and put them right next to each other on the wheel of the universe.
Since when is race a “choice” anywhere?
“The world doesn’t want to know your sexual preference.” So, you’re saying that you have no problem with my being gay as long as I stay at the back of the bus, use a different water fountain, and keep my mouth shut like a good little fag? What kind of bullshit is that?
“It’s just a word. It only has meaning if you give it one.” So “nigger” or “kike” or “wetback” or “dyke” only has a meaning if I give it one?
In that case, “nigger” now means “beautiful flower,” “kike,” means the smell of fresh cut grass, “wetback” is a tasty piece of rock candy, and “dyke” now means “perfect sunset.”
Glad I could solve that problem.
I gotta say, I was wondering how long it would take for the truly ignorant to show up.
I’m pretty sure the truly Ignorant have been here long before this post.
J, I really feel bad for you. You are a sick, sick person who needs help. You have proven, like so many before you that homosexuality is a disease of the mind that needs to be treated like any other mental condition. You are reading from the Gay Book of Stupid Arguments, word for word, which means that they have successfully brain washed you into thinking you deserve special treatment because you are gay.
Hope all goes well for you, but I don’t think you will ever the world collectively supporting a mental condition. Black and female are not a choice. Gay is, and you can argue that it’s not, but that comes from the same book as every other argument gays use to support their condition.
Didn’t that book go on sale last night at midnight? The Gay Book Of Stupid Arguments? Wait, no….my bad.
Nightmare – I’m sorry, you’re right. I think I just meant to say I was wondering that THAT guy would show up.
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