If you’ve been following along, you’ve seen quite a lively discussion taking place on my post, That’s So Gay. I encourage everyone to read and weigh in on the issue, I’m enjoying the debate.
Webmiztris outed herself as the author of the post that inspired my rant. Here’s what she had to say:
LOL, that’s me you’re talking ’bout…ha! yes, I use the phrase ‘fucking gay’ all the time. I honestly can’t think of any better way to describe a keytar, for example, other than to say it’s “fucking gay”. Lame or stupid isn’t quite right. However, it has nothing to do with actual gay people. It’s like ‘fag’ meaning a gay person and ‘fag’ meaning a cigarette. No relation whatsoever.
I responded with:
You’re not making me feel any better about not calling you out on this. Do you not realize that you are using the word “gay” to mean something that is even lower on the scale than “lame” or “stupid?” This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. It’s subversive. It puts the idea out there that gay = negative. It doesn’t matter what context you are trying to use it in… it’s offensive and hurtful. There is a relation between “fag” for gay person and cigarette. They are both things that are burned. Frankly, I can’t believe I’m even having this conversation with someone who I thought had an evolved intellect.
And then I clicked over to see her latest posting. She’s excited about holding auditions for some female musicians for the new band she’s forming, Pussywhipped.
The post ends with this following gem:
There’s no doubt about it – everyone is pushing for an all-girl (or at least mostly girl) band and they want to see it happen! Well, except for one guy on this local musician forum we frequent. He thinks that requesting a female vocalist for our band is ‘sexist’. Is that not the dumbest thing you ever heard? I wrote back and told him, “Do you REALLY think a guy should be singing in a band that’s going to be called Pussywhip?” I mean, this guy would be singing Pink, Hole, Avril, Kelly Clarkson, Joan Jett…. Ugh! That would be the gayest band imaginable! We want a GIRL BAND. Not a GAY BAND with a bunch of ‘FAG HAGS’ on guitars. Gah!
I have linked to Webmiztris dozens of times. I have bestowed awards upon her. I have have participated at her site for a long time. And I now feel completely disgusted and almost betrayed.
I left this comment on her post:
Since I’ve played in bands nearly my whole life, I could probably offer you some great advice on the audition process and what it’s like to be in a real performing group. But since you obviously have a problem with gays and insist on being offensive, I’m going to just keep my mouth shut and retract every nice thing I’ve ever said about you.
I’m sure that some of you are going to think that I am completely over-reacting. I don’t think I am. I don’t do business with companies with poor gay rights histories, and I will not spend any effort continuing to participate in forums where I am obviously considered a second-class citizen.
And I’ll bestow my final award and link to Webmiztris.
I’ll take my GAY BAND that makes a shitload of money and go elsewhere. I’ll take my lame ass to the nearest music store and buy a keytar to go along with it.
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I’m sorry you’ve been attacked the way you have been. Just know that we know you’re right
Othurme – I’m bummed. Nightmare stole my comment. Though it would mean something totally different coming from me.
Nightmare – You’re right. See also: the William Anderson and Wayne Cooper posts.
MikeM – Right… as opposed to that special book that you’re reading from written by that imaginary white-robed all-loving man on a golden throne in the sky. Smarter people than you have been here trying to argue your same point of view and failed miserably too. I suggest you return to your wife-abusing, slave-owning, pork-and-shellfish-avoiding ivory white tower where life is always beautiful and full of magic and fantasy.
Othurme – I think I’ve figured out my next writing project.
diamondfistwerny – Thank you, but actually, this is quite tame compared to some of the other attacks that have happened here. I figure by Monday the fundies will make their way here to try to tell me once again how anal sex is unnatural and my mortal soul is in danger.
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Notice the name, of my site. This has become me, to take the power away from anyone who might try to use words, to hurt me. I can choose to take offense, when called something. Or I can choose to take that power from them, by flipping the script and wearing that Bitch like Prada.My best friend, in the entire world, my son, is gay. As well, I am Bi and make no apologies. I’m an ol’ Fag Hag, from back when it wasn’t even a word or phrase and have defended gays, my whole life, not just with words or action but locked and loaded and almost went to jail for it, more than once.
Enough about me though, this is about you and the need to defend yourself. I can see your reasoning. It’s like, me calling you a nigga, if you’re Black. It’s ok within your own but you feel they don’t have the right or have not earned it.
If you choose to take offense, if you look for the offense, you will find it. You must not allow it to own you, which you have. You must own it, wear it like Jimmy Choo shooz.
At Ask Aunt Babz I am all about, people realizing that you must take back your power and not choose to take offense. You have now armed those, who would choose to hurt you. Let it roll off your back. It’s all about choices, not the fight. Now you’ve exposed your soft pink underbelly, where it hurts you the most.
The reference is not about you, now is it? Are you lame? I’ve been called white trash before, why does that not hurt? Because it’s a generality and it’s not me. Just as in the Gay world, you have men that behave badly and give the Gay name, it’s black eye, you are not them, are you? Right now, you are wearing a black eye, a punch that was not meant for you. Put some cover up on that, Mary and never let ‘em see you cry.
MikeM,
Gay is not a choice. It is predisposition/DNA, the way you are hardwired. You can choose not to act on it and stay in the closet, never being true to yourself, never being happy/gay? Gay men and women, lead an awful life, if they feel the oppression to stay in that closet because of people like yourself.Do you choose to be Hetero? No, it is your predisposition and just as it seems natural to you, to have that attraction, to the opposite sex, it is exactly the same, for someone, who is Gay
You have proven that you do not have an educated opinion, on the subject, you have proven that it is people, like yourself, that are the imminent danger, in our society.
“Gay is not a choice on a job application, or loan application.”
No, but it is a valid and legal reason to fire someone in more than half of the states. BTW, race isn’t supposed to be a consideration for hiring/firing AT ALL.
We’ve stricken down the laws that say who black people can and cannot marry, while trying to craft ones to do just that for homosexuals.
I’d say the comparison to racial and gender discrimination is apt. In fact, that’s more data than I actually need because obviously, bigotry is bigotry, plain and simple.
I always find it both hilarious and pathetic when an obvious bigot pretends not to be, and then tries to blame the appearance of such on the hypersensitivity of the victim. You’re a bigot, MikeM. Just being a realist here.
Joe’s got a point there. There used to be a time when I wouldn’t have been able to marry my daughter’s father. Not too long as a matter of fact. Blacks were considered inferior and mentally sub par.
Using “gay” to describe anything derogatory, inferior, or “lame” isn’t the same as “gay used to mean happy and joyous” (happy and joyous being something pleasurable and desirable). As more people follow the links and leave comments like Mike’s it’ll become more apparent why using “that’s so gay” isn’t at all innocent and why taking back the power of a word just doesn’t work like that.
Dirty Bitch Society – Thanks for visiting! If I’ve shown any “underbelly,” it’s that homophobic remarks made by someone that I respect or genuinely like are able to pierce the thick skin I’ve developed from years of having insults slung my direction.
I do not feel owned by my offense. I am emboldened and vindicated to discover that my original reading of the offensive remarks as being offensive, was correct. Subsequent comments and posts have revealed the true nature of that particular community’s beliefs.
Read my original post again. I talked about the dangers of the use of that word. That post was MOSTLY about teens and pre-teens using the term and how discouraging that was to me.
Dawn took that post as an opportunity to reveal her true opinions and attempt to excuse them as her lackluster attempts at humor.
Dirty Bitch Society – Well said. I’m sure that it will go in one ear and out the other, as there seems to be nothing in between to capture it.
Joe the Troll – Thanks for stopping by, and thank you for “getting it.” Unfortunately, I’m afraid that Dawn has become one of the latter people you describe. Her site has become a festering pot of anti-gay, disrespectful sentiment. That makes me sad.
JennytheJinx – I’m just waiting for the flood of bigots making their way here when everyone returns to work on Monday. I have to say I’m quite amazed at the relative lack of them that have appeared thus far.
Good for you, Jester, in remaining classy throughout this kerfuffle (I will repost my explanation of the word, just for you). Also, your blog design totally rocks! I’m glad I “met” you, even if it was due to this unfortunate event.
MikeM said: Sexuality is something you need to keep to yourself anyway. I don’t care if you are gay, bi or straight. Keep it to yourself and the nay-sayers won’t have anything to say. You are giving people a reason do dislike you.
So when I, a hetero woman, walk down the street holding some guy’s hand, that means it’s okay for a gay person to not only dislike me, but come up and call me names, or try to kill me? Because most often, that’s what happens when gay couples walk together. The gay-haters use that as an excuse to beat them up.
It’s fine for heteros to NOT keep our sexuality to ourselves. We can snog in public parks and everyone smiles. But gay people can’t even say “I am offended when someone uses a pejorative phrase” because then they’re perpetuating the dislike.
Really classy, MikeM.
Whoops! Reading some more from MikeM, it’s clear he’s not someone who actually bothers to think. My bad for reasoning with him.
Mike – Ignorance is bliss. But after a look at your blog, I really don’t think you can call it ignorance. You have support on there for cancer and ginger children. Do you honestly think that being gay is a choice? We have as much a choice about loving the same sex as you do about loving the opposite sex. You are the jack ass that follows
Fred Phelps and will throw a bible in my face at my brothers military funeral and say that we should both burn in hell. Although I don’t have time for a blog or my own website because I’m too busy making a difference in the world (sorry Jester, not personal), if I did have one…it would say…
SUCK MY DICK!
Jester,
I’m sure they’ll flood like a leaking sewer pipe. Sad to say that kind of shit is uber predictable. But it’s all in fun, right? Heh.
*psst..It’s Jennyjinx or JJ or just Jenny. Though my husband says I’m a jinx of the highest order.:)*
Miz UV – Yeah, that might be the only time I’ve ever been described as “classy.” Not because I’m offensive to others, but usually because I’ve done something that most people would consider to be embarrassing.
Thanks for the compliments, I did the design myself.:) I look forward to reading your explanation of kerfuffle.
Gekko – well, yeah, because God says holding hands and making out with the opposite sex is normal. Anything else is just dirty and nasty and shameful, didn’t you know that?? I’m wondering what God has to say about the use of “gay” in place of “lame.” No sense in waging a battle of wits with the unarmed.
Toby – No offense taken. I’m glad you’re out saving the world, cause I’m just too tired to do it myself. I need to delegate those types of tasks. I see that you’re taking advantage of the fact that I don’t police the right of my commenters to call an asshole an asshole.
Jennyjinx – Sorry about the moniker-butchering. I’m battening down the hatches for tomorrow’s explosion of the proselytizers and the brain trust of the Wingnut Brigade.
Wow!
This is some turnout…it all started nicely enough but then the real wackos showed up. Somewhere out there a few of these guys are rubbing one out to the thought of really telling that gay guy how it is.
I also enjoyed the argument, “…you can argue that it’s not, but that comes from the same book as every other argument gays use to support their condition.”
That is such a shitty anti-discussion cop out. A last ditch effort to pull out of a losing argument.
Sorry I am so late to the party.
Killer – Yeah, no kidding, where the hell have you been? Is that book you’re referencing “The Gay Book of Stupid Arguments” that was referenced earlier? I’m on the waiting list for it at the library. Figure I’d better read it.
Seems to me that Dawn has become your punching bag for all your pent up frustration. It’s scary how you’re taking umbrage at a truly offhand remark. As a reader of her blog it seems to me that her blog is generally easygoing and she doesn’t censor herself just so as to appear politically correct. Many people who discriminate against gays do so discreetly and vehemently where it matters, like when they vote or hire or fire someone. Singling out one blogger who uses a term that is pretty common doesn’t help your cause. I truly don’t think that you should equate the gay cause to the struggle that African Americans experienced in the US. Many people are discriminated against and have found themselves being denied chances at jobs, relationships and whatnot (Fat women, short men, people with lazy eyes/ harelips/ lisps/ body odour, the list goes on).
Sally – did you read everything going on here? It doesn’t seem like it. If you read the original post and the discussion thereafter, you’d see that no one singled out Dawn. Dawn outed herself.
The original posts excuses her for making an offhanded remark, and only asks that she consider what she says before making it again. Why is that so bad? Is she not able to control what comes out of her mouth/keyboard?
I don’t think anyone equated the gay cause to the struggle of African-Americans. They certainly were compared and there are plenty of areas where they are similar. Both are certainly victims of discrimination and bigotry.
Did anyone here dismiss discrimination against fat people, short people, lisps, or what not? Nope. Discrimination there is just as bad.
Sally – How are “gayest band ever,” “[we don't want to be a] GAY BAND,” and “[that would make us] a bunch of FAG HAGS” truly offhand remarks?
I never said the gay cause was the SAME as the racial struggles in this country, I said they were SIMILAR and they are.
Othurme – I’m so glad you get it.
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Nightmare said
I remember when GAY used to mean happy. Why is it that the Homosexuals get to usurp words and symbols and make them their own and when we use one that isn’t “correct” in their eyes, they get all pissy and try and make us feel like we’re lower class citizens?
I remember when “special” was unrelated to a short bus, Olympic Games where all participants get medals regardless of ability or whether or not they can actually perform a given sport and when it didn’t mean education for low IQ- I don’t read people clamouring to take back the word SPECIAL. BOO HOO HOO Nightmare. You are a lower class of citizen if you react in ignorance about something which you can get information on.
Our collective culture is responsible for hijacking language, reassigning word meanings and creating neologisms- the GAYS did not lable themselves gay, we just ran with a name we’d been given. I think it’s rather enlightening bigots show up in droves to voice their disdain in total ignorance and almost always feel “vicitmized.” How TELL-TALE.
queertardo – Well said. I’m also amused by the white male majority who screams about our “infringement on their rights” as if they have any idea what having their rights infringed upon is really like.
What really amazes me is that people (in general) don’t have any idea of what a gay person goes through. There was a comment made earlier (you may have to look really closely because I’m not sure which post it was on) that said that it wasn’t long ago that interracial marriages were illegal. It’s usually those same people that still think that they should be illegal that continue to run their mouths about issues they have absolutely no experience with. So what…your brother/sister/son/daughter/dog/cat gay…how does that affect the job YOU were never fired from (Bankers Life & Casualty did it to me), or the excess taxes you will never have to pay because you can get married. And was that you that came home with the black eye when you were 11 because some redneck decides that he doesn’t want his son growing up to be gay? I appreciate it when my brother sticks up for me in my absence, I appreciate it when my friends go out of their way to think before they speak offensive slurs. I appreciate your opinion. But until you’ve walked in my heels and worn the thick skin I’ve had for the last 30 years, please don’t give me your two cents worth. It will mean absolutely nothing and only goes to prove YOUR ignorance.
Toby – I’m beginning to think that if you have to explain it, they won’t get it. It’s something you either “get” or don’t.
BTW…just in case you’re still keeping track Jester…that last post put me in number 5. So…if someone does give up their spot (at least for the top 5 anyway), I think it would be a good idea that your pics must go to the person who booted you (Of course you would have to BCC to Jester too. Not my rule, that one is his.) Everyone keeps screaming about these pics and yet no one is willing to give them up?
Bashfully says…Oops, the above comment was supposed to be on a different post. Sorry!
Toby – You’re really gunning for the number 2 position, huh? I’m so proud.. you’re quickly sneaking up behind Killer. It’s ok, though. I don’t think he’ll mind. And it’s ok, this post could use some levity.
Mike M says, “Sexuality is something you need to keep to yourself anyway. I don’t care if you are gay, bi or straight. Keep it to yourself and the nay-sayers won’t have anything to say. ”
I love it when bigots say to gay people, “Why must you flaunt it? Why can’t you keep it to yourself?” What they really mean is, “Pretend to be straight for me. When I ask you if you’re dating someone, pretend it’s a woman. When I ask you who you went to the movies with, say ‘my girlfriend’”. That’s what MikeM is saying.
If he’s not asking gays to lie to him, how exactly is a gay person, or a straight person, supposed to “keep it to yourself”? If someone asks him about his wedding ring, I guess he’ll answer with, “What wife?” I guess he’ll take down the photos of his girlfriend/wife/kids from his office, avoid any and all personal questions asked by friends, co-workers, and strangers making small talk? I’ll keep my sexaulity a total and complete secret, even from my friends, if straight people will do the same. Fair is fair.
Good luck on that great plan.
Julie – Something I’ve always wondered is where these people see all the gay people “flaunting” it. I’ve seen couples holding hands walking down the street… is that flaunting? What about the friends who meet and hug on the corners? Are they flaunting it? I’ve seen straight couples doing everything but get naked and go at it on the subway. They are flaunting it. Perhaps we should start taking our sexcapades out of the men’s rooms and doing it on the streets. That will show them.
Some really interesting points made here on one of my favorite topics (semantics). I get so frustrated with people who, in a discussion or, ahem, argument with me who throw out the ignorant phrase, “You’re just arguing semantic!” Of course I am. Words have specific meanings for a very important reason. They allow us to communicate accurately and effectively. Of course language is going to evolve over time, but slang substitutions like “gay” for “lame, stupid” are not natural word evolutions; they are born out of laziness, ignorance, and lack of vocabulary. If kids (and young adults) have such great vocabularies these days, then why am I seeing TV ads for a hand held video game to teach people words like polyglot?
I’ve become very careful in choosing my words these days, because not doing so can cause all sorts of misunderstanding. Case in point: Growing up around military/government/law enforcement people left me with a singular definition for the word spook – spy, undercover operative. One day, one of my black friends was asking me about someone’s duties while they were in VietNam, and I replied, “he was a spook over in ‘Nam.” She wouldn’t speak to me for about six weeks, until she made her own gaffe in front of someone else. We had a good laugh about it then, but it impressed upon me the importance of my words.
I tend to piss of a lot of people with some of my views and my insistence on using big and precise words in discussions (especially when I know that they don’t know the definition, hehehe). Invariably, some fucktard will respond with a brilliant retort like, “quit being so gay.” If they only knew that I’ve probably done their old lady at some point in the past…
Take care,
E
Eric – I completely agree with you. The words we choose to use are really the only way we have to communicate ideas effectively. If you are using the wrong word, you can’t be surprised when someone misunderstands what you say.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care if you are gay, straight or if you like to hump farm animals, but why do gays have to announce they are gay? Who cares? Do what you like. Why do you have to have acceptance from the world?
I’ve be straight all my life, but you don’t see me organizing a parade to announce it to the world. My life is my life and I don’t need the world to accept it.
And if you are a little too sensitive to the words people use, you need a lesson in how to have thick skin. People use wrong words all the time. I’m not an English teacher (and I presume neither are you) and it’s not my job to correct them. They look stupid for using the word.
And if you want to say “that’s so straight” you go right ahead. If it makes you feel better, you have the permission from a straight guy to say it and I promise not to be overly offended.
They are just words. They only have a deeper meaning if you attach it to them.
There is a lot more to life than this sort of thing (not the gay thing. The over sensitive thing). Get past it and discover what you have been missing.
John – As a straight man, you don’t have to deal with people making assumptions about your life or making laws to prevent you from having the basic freedoms afforded to everyone else. I’ll bet anything that the minute someone started making noise about getting rid of your right to leave your estate to your wife you’d organize a parade too. Do you believe that African Americans should not have held protests or celebration parades to get civil rights? Should we cancel the St. Patrick’s Day parade since that promotes Irish Pride? How about we cancel any Federal holiday related to a religious event, celebrating Christian Pride?
“They are just words. They only have a deeper meaning if you attach it to them.”
Really? “We hold these truths to be self evident; that all men are created equal…” Those are just words, why all the interpretations? Words are how we communicate. You can’t use the word “nigger” or “spic” or “jap” with impunity. You can’t “jew” someone down on the price, and you can’t get “gypped.”
Sure there’s a lot more to life than this sort of thing, so why fuck it up for people and degrade or otherwise insult them?