I spend a lot of time correcting teens. I work at a high school so I hear it all day…eventually I just start calling them on the whole “thats so gay” thing. I would usually throw a dictionary at them and tell them to find me the part where it says that Gay means anything negative. One day after a student called another one gay in negative context. I said “go look up the work gay, you will find that gay means happy or with joy….well when he looked in the dictionary the first definition was that gay means homosexual, or someone who acts in homosexual ways. I was stunned for bit….WTF is that about….wait, where was I going with that?…hmm…Goodnight. (lol)

Branden - how does one act in a homosexual way? Does that mean prancing about with a limp wrist, or giving a blowjob?

I use “gay” in that sense sometimes without thinking. But usually I use it when I’m telling my friends that they’re actually acting gay. Which is now synonymous with metrosexual, I think.

If everybody would just use “retarded” when they mean “lame” or “boneheaded”, we’d all be happy. Well, except for retards. But just give them some ice cream.

see, damn avi made me laugh and i probably shouldn’t have. thanks for proving jester’s point that i am lame. sigh.

honestly jester, i have accidentally said something or someone was “gay” when i meant “stupid.” as soon as it flies out of my mouth i think “that is not what i meant to say” so usually i verbally mention my mistake. but i promise to make a better effort to just not say it. because i don’t mean to be so stupid myself!

Sheesh! Now I am scared of that Flaming Fuck You finger showing up…

Ok I have to disagree with you on this one.

I too am an online player of video games. I here this all the time and I know that the word isn’t being used in reference to gay people at all it is being used like you said as a synonym for lame, dorky, stupid, crappy, etc.

It’s an evolution of language, it happens. There are 22 different meanings for the word “set”. How did the word gay start being used to refer to homosexuals? Same way, evolution of the language.

If the word is being used in such a way as not referring to you and not meaning any malice, why would you be offended?

If I said you had a black sense of humor, should black people become offended because I mean you are morbid?

Why did the people fleeing the area of Katrina get offended because they were referred to as refugees? They were seeking refuge. It’s a completely legitimate use of the word, but since it was equated for a long time with immigrants coming into the country that a lot of people didn’t want to bring in, they equated the word with something they didn’t like.

In this particular instance, I do believe that the person who came up with using the word gay, in this was was definitely using it as a bash towards gays, but it has since evolved. It no longer carries the sexual gay reference but is instead just a teenspeak thing.

I love that you brought this topic up and I hope you don’t mind the voluminous post in your comment section.

Wow. Dave actually makes a pretty good point.

ANYway, I was thinking how ironic it is that I get so lazy with my own speech. I use the word “gay” sometimes, “retarded” wayyy more than I care to admit to myself - and God only knows what else when I’m just being careless.

I remember my mom getting pissed at my brothers when they would call each other “girls” as an insult. And I remember ripping into my husband when he did the same thing. My reasoning being that being a “freaking GIRL” is not the worst thing imaginable for fuck’s sake, ya know?

Anyway.. heh… um… great post. Awesome comments.

Avitable - Metrosexual isn’t synonymous with gay. It’s almost an antonym. Metrosexuals are guys who have figured out they can take advantage of more women if they spend just a little time dressing up like a gay guy. LOL @ the retard comment. ::looks around nervously::

hello - That’s all I’m asking. Be more aware of the language you use!

Dutchy - LOL.. that’s good.. you should always have just a slight sense of fear of receiving the finger… Fear the finger!

Well, yea, not a synonym, exactly. But a straight man who is being very metrosexual might be confused for a gay man at times, too. And if you keep your ice cream handy, we’ll be safe.

Dave - While I understand your argument, I’m afraid that you’re forgetting my point. I know that people aren’t REALLY meaning to equate “lame” with being gay, but language is subversive; the brain starts making the connection. That’s dangerous.

The word “black” is evolving in the opposite direction. The black community has done a very good job of embracing previously derogatory words and turning them into something they self-identify with.

The fact that it’s become “teenspeak” doesn’t make it ok. Picture teens who are struggling with their own sexuality being surrounded daily by people using the word gay to describe negative things.

I love voluminous comments.;)

Miss Britt - The analogy of girl is pretty close to the one I’m making. There are so many other worse things to be… How about instead of “gay” we use “dog torturer” or “polka lover” or “unibrow”?

Avitable - I’ve made the mistake of confusing a metrosexual with a gay guy. Best sex of my life.

Several years ago, I inadvertently outed myself to a segment of my extended family when I “educated” the two of the teens at the dinner table who were saying, “that’s so gay” about some crackhead behavior being displayed by one of their friends. The adults just stopped mid-trip with the fork to the mouth and you could see lightbulbs going off all over. Oh, wait, should I expect the crackheads to protest my earlier characterization? Oy.

I am afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree. I am not forgetting your point, I just don’t agree with you.

My sister is living in Scotland where the language is used much differently. In Canada where we are from to refer to an Asian person as a “Chinkie” or a Pakistani person as a “Paki” would be the equivalent of walking up to them and punching in the face. But in Scotland if you are going for Chinese food, it is perfectly normal to say, “Let’s go for Chinkie”.

While my sister finds it racist everyone in Scotland that she has confronted about it put her in her place.

I feel the same way, I know that the word gay when used in that context is not meant as a slur, and I would never try and walk on eggshells and not use the term in front of a gay friend. If they called me on it I’d tell them to get bent

Same thing with the word gyp. If I feel cheated I have no problem saying that I feel gypped even though the word originated as a racial slur against Romanian gypsy’s the word has evolved to the point where many people don’t remember that it was at one time incredibly offensive.

Dave - There was a time in the US where the word “nigger” was used daily and acceptable (still is, I suspect). It was only offensive to a minority, despite widespread usage. Common use does not excuse offense, whether you are in Scotland, Canada, or on Castro Street in San Francisco.

If I were your gay friend and you used the term “gay” in a derogatory sense in front of me, despite knowing that I (and many others) find it offensive, I would punch you directly in the crotch.

Using the word “gyp” despite knowing that it is an incredibly offensive word would make you an asshole, and THAT my friend is a word that is the same in any language.

Lori, the crackheads are too busy trimming the lawn with nail clippers to care.

Meanwhile, Jester, I totally agree with you. But unlike many, I recognize a time not so long ago when the word gay had nothing to do with homosexualty and everything to do with being happy. But then, it wasn’t so long ago that the term “retarded” was an acceptable way to describe a person with developmental disorders and “mongoloid” was an accepted term for those with Down’s Syndrome. It’s amazing how words can become offensive.

Sadly, we live in a society that harbors a great many people who do think there is something wrong with being homosexual. Who refuse to understand that it’s the way you’re built, not a choice that you made.

Education. Speaking of which, Dave, thank you for the origins of the term “gyp” I will consider that every time I feel as though I have been cheated. Thank you.

Gina - I remember hearing my grandparents using the word “Mongoloid.” It took forever for me to figure out what they meant. I was always going, “What does that Down’s kid have to do with Genghis Khan?”

I’m not so concerned about what true homophobes call me or think about me. I’m more concerned about those people who I know don’t harbor any homophobic thoughts perpetuating an epithet without really knowing what they were doing.

Yeah, you shouldn’t feel “gypped” and you should never try to “jew” someone down on the price.

how about i never even knew how to spell gyp, let alone its origin. learn something new every day.

and jester, i love that you said asshole is the same in any language. made my morning.

These comments are all British. (I’m starting a new one, here and now.)

LOL, that’s me you’re talking ’bout…ha! yes, I use the phrase ‘fucking gay’ all the time. I honestly can’t think of any better way to describe a keytar, for example, other than to say it’s “fucking gay”. Lame or stupid isn’t quite right. However, it has nothing to do with actual gay people. It’s like ‘fag’ meaning a gay person and ‘fag’ meaning a cigarette. No relation whatsoever.

Webmiztris - What you just put up IS lame….Why the heck would you say something like “fucking gay” and then turn around and say it has nothing to do with what people now perceive gay to mean? Even if you were trying to say that you are referring to gay being a happy go luck thing, that wouldn’t hold water because saying “fucking gay” about something that makes you upset would mean that the word fucking and the word gay both have negative connotation attached to them. And yet another bad example for the word fag. Fag comes from the term to burn a bundle of sticks…they gave that nick name to homosexuals because they used to burn them at the stake along with “witches” and crazy people that they just didn’t like. It is like calling a jewish person… SOAP! So GOOD FOR YOU!!!!, you look incredibly stupid.

Sorry Jester

Fagot
–noun
1.a bundle of sticks, twigs, or branches bound together and used as fuel, a fascine, a torch, etc.

2.a bundle of pieces of iron or steel to be welded, hammered, or rolled together at high temperature.

Ok, the point is made about word evolution. The “people” at the root of the evolution meant for this to happen. Whether it was a couple of teenage punks or some well organized anti-gay organization, they would be proud of this evolution which you are participating in. Whatever the case, be certain that the church, our current government, and the KKK are happy to have you making this argument. They would truly consider you an ally in the “good fight”.

Rather than take a stand and argue on the side of an issue that offends and hurts peoples’ feelings, it would make you a way better person to say “At least one person is hurt by this, and now I understand that, and choose not to participate in the evolution of this word” and maybe try to help turn that evolution the other diection.

Hello - Glad I could help.

Othurme - I’m not sure that one will catch on.

Webmiztris - You’re not making me feel any better about not calling you out on this. Do you not realize that you are using the word “gay” to mean something that is even lower on the scale than “lame” or “stupid?” This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. It’s subversive. It puts the idea out there that gay = negative. It doesn’t matter what context you are trying to use it in… it’s offensive and hurtful. There is a relation between “fag” for gay person and cigarette. They are both things that are burned. Frankly, I can’t believe I’m even having this conversation with someone who I thought had an evolved intellect.

None of your Biz - Don’t be sorry. I’m glad that I have some back up. And another gay guy who understands just how offensive this is.

Branden - Don’t bother, I’m afraid those who insist on using “gay” to mean something offensive don’t really care much about whether or not they use the word faggot.

Othurme - I’m astonished at the argument that “because everyone else is using the word this way must make it acceptable” is being made by seemingly rational adults. It’s depressing is what it is.

Ok I still hope we’re in the realm of friendly debate, because I really do feel that I want to try and get my point across about this.

Here is how I feel…

When you get offended about a word that you know I am not using in an insulting way, you are doing a disservice to me. You are trying to force me to conform to your ideal when I don’t want to and when I don’t feel it’s necessary.

Ironically I’ll use Michael Richards as an example. Remember that Seinfeld episode where Kramer does the aids walk but doesn’t want to wear the ribbon? Why should he have to wear the ribbon?

If I know that the word sinister originated because of a suspicion of left handed people, am I never allowed to use the word sinister again for fear of offending someone left handed that is also well read?

If I have a gay friend that I know is offended when the word gay is used in the “lame” sense, I’ll never ever use it in front of him because I am polite and I am a good friend. But I am always going to think to myself that my friend is a little stupid to be offended by it.

Do you not see the irony in this argument as well when so many straight people try to make the same argument on the word marriage and how they believe it to be the union of one man and one woman?

If you get to say that we’re not allowed to use the word gay to ever mean “lame” I argue that from this day forth you are never allowed to use the word marriage to mean “2 guys or girls in a committed relationship”.

Because trust me there are people out there that are just as offended when you try to take that word from them, and if it’s just about not offending people then all sides have to play by the same rules.

Me, I’m all for gay marriage and that when playing online with my nephew in some video games and he says, “That’s gay” when I beat him with a lame trick, that’s ok too.

Part of me agrees with you, Dave.

But the other part of me thinks that getting offended when you associate “gay” with “lame” is just like getting offended with someone associates “jew” with “cheap”.

“Don’t be a jew.” - The meaning isn’t that you’re from Israel and don’t believe in the New Testament. It’s a meaning that has come from a stereotypical use of the word. Same thing with “gay”.

I don’t see why everyone can’t be right here…except for maybe Jester.

Gay is lame. Lame is bad. Gay is bad. Jews are cheap.

It’s a well known mathematical equation. If A=B and B=C, then Jew are cheap. See?

After reading all the arguments, it occured to me that the negative use of the word “Gay” is for Jester similar to the use of the word “Witch” to me. It drives me crazy when someone is called a Bitch when the person doing the insulting really means Bitch. Sure, they rhyme, but they are not the same. Some witches are bitches, but not all bitches are witches, just as some gays are lame but not all lames are gay. Lame being a term to describe something bad as opposed to a more antiquated way to describe someone who is disabled.

Funny, there was a time when being called a witch or homosexual would get you burned…

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I have learned to translate in my head and not try to argue with people about meanings because words mean something diferent to different people. And if I cried foul every time someone was called a witch instead of a bitch, I’d never get anything done. Oh wait, I’m not getting anything done right now anyway…I’m not saying it’s right or ok, Jester, and I am not questioning your right to cry foul, especially since it has sparked such a facinating discussion. Some arguments just don’t have an easy solution.

Dave - Of course it’s still a friendly debate. I think your analogy of the Seinfeld episode is flawed. I’m not asking anyone to wear a ribbon and march in parades. I’m asking that you stop perpetuating a negative idea. I would go so far to say that if you were truly a good friend to your gay friends you would want to stop perpetuating the negativity.

“Marriage” is another can of worms entirely. I’ve said many times that using that term should be reserved SOLELY for couples who held ceremonies that involve the church. I think it’s possible for a couple to be “married” who aren’t legally contracted to each other and vice versa.

And in any case, I don’t see anyone using “marriage” as a insult to any one.

Why can’t you use the opportunity to teach your nephew that using negative stereotypes is harmful and perhaps have a conversation about how gay people aren’t evil nasty or lame?

@Avitable

Certain words never evolved. “nigger” “jew(as cheap)” “kike” “spic”. All these words clearly intend to give offense and never changed to the point where the person using the word thought it wasn’t offensive.

I am arguing gay as “lame” has evolved and did so quickly and is at the point now where the majority of people using it never mean it to be offensive to gay people.

I believe the reason for this is the age of the people using it. It’s been picked up from the teen and pre-teen crowd who as a large majority have been raised to know that there is nothing wrong with being gay.

Dave, that’s where I think you’re wrong. I think that the teen and pre-teen crowd are still very susceptible to their parents’ views on things and that gay is still very, very wrong. It might be more accepted on TV, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay for most teens if they had a gay friend - they’re still very discriminatory.

Avitable - Excellent analogy.

GW Bush - One of the clearest arguments you’ve ever made. It’s still wrong, but at least it’s clear.

Gina - Unfortunately, gays still find themselves being beaten and burned and left to die while tied up to fence posts. Countless others commit suicide because of all the negativity and their inability to cope. There really is an easy solution… use the right word for what you mean. If you mean someone is a bitch, say “bitch”. If you mean it’s stupid or lame, use the words “stupid” or “lame.” Why insist on going out of your way to insult and offend someone? Merely because it is your right to do so?

Dave - According to the Center for Disease Control/Massachusetts Department of Education Youth Risk Behavior Survey (1999), 33% of gay youth will attempt suicide. In fact, gay teen suicide attempts are four times that of heterosexual youth. I don’t believe that a “large majority” have been raised to know that there is nothing wrong with being gay. Watch the news, listen to the debates on gay “marriage” and gays in the military. Look at the media coverage of pride events. It’s still being portrayed and sold to the public as an abomination and something to be derided.

Just because you don’t “mean it to be offensive” doesn’t change the fundamental fact that it is. I can piss on you and call it rain, that doesn’t make you want to splash in the puddles.

Avitable - Teens are probably the most discriminatory group. Junior High was hell. Yes, gay youth of today have it better than I did even 15 years ago, but they are still the subject of beatings and humiliation and even sexual assault every day in our high schools.

Jester, it’s the mindset not the word.

My nephew is 26 and knows very well that gay people aren’t nasty or lame. He like knows as do I, when he uses the word gay, in that context, he’s not referring to gay people, at all,ever. He as a matter of fact, was the first person I ever heard use the word in that context. And I called him on it. And he explained to me that all the gamers use the term and they aren’t referring to gay people and that is I thought so I was an old fart (which at 39 I am).

To them it was like the word “phat” Fat people (like I am) used to get offended at that term too.

If we started spelling the gamer usage “ghay” maybe that would satisfy everyone?

This is true, but I will never forget the time that a bunch of kids asked me if they could tie me to a stake. Or all the stories of students persecuted in high schools and accused to casting spells because they are out of the broom closet and some kid decided to make an issue of it. There are many Witches just as afraid to come out of the broom closet the way there are Gay folks afraid to come out. While there aren’t the beatings and killings, that I know of, the persecutions are still there. In my town, black people are still beaten for being black. White power runs rampant and symbols of the SS are painted brazenly on the windows of lifted trucks. Do you think I would consider hanging a pentacle from my rearview mirror?

I do use the right word for what I mean. I do not insult for the sake of offending. In this, I can only lead by example. I try not to bash other faiths or act all spooky so that when people do learn of my faith they learn that not all witches go around screeching curses and wearing big pointy hats, (i’ve yet to meet one that does, actually) just as not all gay men are feminine and boysterous about it. I think it’s great that you try to educate when possible, but this sort of ignorance extends to many different groups who have been traditionally unaccepted based on their beliefs. I don’t think I use the term “gay” to mean stupid, but I will certainly listen to myself and make sure I don’t in the future. When I was a teen, “lame” was the term to use when something was stupid. Can you imagine how surprised I was later, when one of m students told me something was “sick”? And they ment it as a good thing! I just smiled when one of them told me that if he ever met a real witch he would run away. (it was halloween time). I’m sure the current popular use of the word Gay will pass. Especially as kids grow up to realize that gay does not equal lame.

Dave - Words are the communication of ideas between people… even though you as the speaker don’t necessarily mean it to be offensive does not mean that the listener is aware of the connotation. As I’ve said several times, it’s subversive and sneaky. You are selling the subliminal idea that gay is bad or lame.

“Phat” was used as a compliment as I recall.

And while I appreciate the idea that some gamers have altered the spelling to “ghey” to distinguish between homosexuals and “lame” the fact remains that the word is still the same offensive usage.

Gina - I’ve known many Wiccans. I’ve never known one who did anything remotely dangerous or harmful. I think you could get away with hanging a pentagram from your mirror in your town… most of those ignorant assholes would just assume that you were into Motley Crue and Marilyn Manson. I find it fascinating that so many many years later, we are still debating the puritan’s actions and beliefs.

Jester - Stop being a butt-fucking pansy and admit that you’re wrong about this. I didn’t mean anything bad by butt-fucking pansy. I heard some guy use it on Everquest II, so I figured it evolved into acceptable.

[...] First for this BlogIt Has Come To My Attention…Cat HaikuWhat do these people have in common?That’s So GayLurkers [...]

Othurme - I’ll try not to take offense, you phat bastard.

Dave’s comment (and Avi’s and Britt’s, etc.) reflects my sentiments so exactly and I don’t think I can say it any better than that. Honestly, this PC crap (not just in regards to the ‘fucking gay’ thing, but in regards to EVERYTHING) is way too fucking much for me. I’m not PC, never have been, never will be, (anyone who’s read my blog for any amount of time should know that) and if you think the term ‘fucking gay’ is in reference to any object (keytar, for example) has ANYTHING to do with homosexuality… Well, I guess there’s not much I can do to convince you otherwise, but you’re wrong.

And GOOD LORD with the fag thing. I guarantee if you go to Europe and someone asks you if they can bum a ‘fag’, they’re not even THINKING about burning gay people at the stake! Lighten the hell up, people!

Jester: I am sorry but Gays being strung up on fences or teens committing suicide can’t be said to have a correlation to people using gay out of context. I think invoking such symbolism takes away from the original argument.

Dave: You say gay has evolved while jew has not. What is your your basis for that statement? Could that be because you find one acceptable and one you do not. There is no difference. I grew up thinking using Jew was acceptable. I never thought it was offensive. I think this is very similar to using gay. Many people don’t see it as offensive but it still is.

Myself I have taken the following stand on the issue. I try to educate people about the misuse of the gay in conversation. But when they don’t get it as they often don’t I would never stop being friends with someone over it.

webmiztris - It has NOTHING to do with being politically correct, and everything to do with being rude and offensive. Calling someone “height-challenged” instead of “short” is politically correct. SHORT and HEIGHT CHALLENGED mean the same thing.

GAY does not mean the same thing as LAME.

We’re not talking about people in Europe who are using the term “fag.” We were merely pointing out the origin of that word as an insult to homosexuals. Europeans who are talking about cigarettes are actually using the term in a way that is at least close to the intended meaning. You actually set fire to a cigarette.

If you can’t get it through your head that regardless of whether you are talking about a keytar or an ugly purse or an idiot on the street, you are using an offensive term that perpetuates a negative stereotype.

Your continued usage, and your defense of its usage is a sign of ignorance and arrogance. I can’t make it any simper than that.

Daniel - My use of the image of gays being strung up on fences was merely an illustration of the fact that teens most certainly do NOT understand that being gay is fine. If teens really believed that, then suicide rates wouldn’t be astronomical. Assaults against gay teens would not be as frequent. The use of gay as a negative adjective perpetuates the oppressive atmosphere, especially among impressionable teens and pre-teens.

If a “friend” insists on using a term that you find offensive, despite your request that they stop using that term, they don’t deserve your friendship.

It’s not a matter of “lightening up.” It’s really a matter of more people getting pissed off by it and making it stop.

You can feel how you want to feel about it, Jester. It doesn’t change the fact that I’ll use the phrase when I see fit to use it. If that means you never visit my blog again, then I guess that’s the way it’s going to be. I don’t adjust who I am to suit the expectations of the people around me.

And you say “gay” doesn’t mean the same thing as “lame”. Well, I’m saying sometimes it DOES mean the same thing as “lame”. And other times? It means “happy”. And yet OTHER TIMES, it means “homosexual”. It’s just a WORD and like thousands of other words, it has many different meanings.

Your insisting that “gay” could even POSSIBLY be equated to “lame” in a derogatory way is practically comical to me also because most gay people are the complete opposite of lame. They’re bright, showy, and in-your-face with attitude.

None of this makes any sense to me. Nobody is offended at Avi’s today and the word “gaywad” is used in his post. To echo my earlier statement: Everyone needs to loosen the hell up.

Well I see your point about a friend insisting on using gay. But I think I have ever had a “friend” insist on using the term. And I don’t think people like webmiztris is not worthy of such a title.

But as you know I am an avid World of Warcraft of player. The other night I was talking to a good friend while playing and he commented something was gay. As soon as he said it he promptly corrected his mistake. I can not hold this against my friend. I understand that he hears thats gay all the time and as we know we copy language. He tries not to be offensive. I forgive him if he slips up. With a true friend it is a two way street.

Daniel - the difference here is your friend recognized it and went out of his way to correct it for your sake. That indeed is a friend. Webmiztris is not making any apologies for who she is and what she says and seemingly wants other people to accept her by changing their beliefs on the subject to suit her vocabulary, while at the same time refusing to “adjust who I am to suit the expectations of the people around me”… Friendship really is a two way street, but not for her according to her own words.

“she seemingly wants other people to accept her by changing their beliefs on the subject”

huh? How on EARTH did you infer that? I’m not asking ANYONE to change their beliefs. Jester is the one asking ME to change my beliefs! Are you people fucking crazy?

Jester can feels how we wants to feel on the matter and I can feel how I want to feel! It just so happens that we disagree with each other on the subject and you know what? THAT’S OK.

Webmiztris - you ended your previous comment with “Everyone needs to loosen the hell up”, that’s just saying we should change because you won’t. Maybe you could loosen up and just try a little not to offend someone or make a small apology when you accidentally do.

You explained that you won’t change. And that’s ok too, but you keep coming back here discuss it. Whether our opinions are crazy or not we’re probably going to keep talking about it when you decide you’re tired of the discussion, which you probably already are.

You are absolutely correct: I’m tired of it and have nothing further to say on the subject anyway. I stand by everything I wrote in my previous comments.

webmiztris - Thank you so much for your permission to feel offended. I will, thank you. You completely contradict yourself, though… first you say, “I’m saying sometimes it [gay] DOES mean the same thing as ‘lame’” and then in the very next paragraph you say, “Your insisting that ‘gay’ could even POSSIBLY be equated to ‘lame’ in a derogatory way is practically comical…” Which is it? Gay means lame or no?

Daniel - Othurme nailed it right on the head… your friend acknowledged his mistake and you rightly let it go… no harm no foul. Persistant use of terms that are offensive to others without apology and even an arrogant stance that you aren’t being offensive reeks of bigotry.

webmiztris (2) - I’m not asking you to change your beliefs. I’m pointing out that your use of the word gay to mean lame is offensive. My whole point was that I didn’t really believe that you were homophobic, which is why it surprised me that you insisted on using a term that is patently homophobic. Now I’m not so sure that you don’t actually dislike gays. In fact, based on these comments and your blog post today, I’d easily believe you to be a hypocritical bigot… and that’s the worse kind.

Although this is really late in the conversation on here..I just figured I would say on here that webmiztris is a bitch…and not in the dog way but in the she is a fucking bitch way. *wink*

Shit step out of the room for a second and you miss so much.

Daniel I guess I base my large majority statement on every single person that I hang around with… I tend to hang around with well educated tolerant people. Jew as cheap has a serious literary work behind it (Merchant of Venice) but when it was taught to me in school in Canada we used it as a tool to break down the stereotype. Never around me has Jew (as cheap) been considered acceptable.

Avitable, I have only lived in big cities for the last 20 years. I can’t believe the generation gap between the kids I see and interact with today compared to my childhood. I rarely see parental influence good or bad, I see more commercial and mob mentality. The mobs of youth that I have dealt with have been very pro gay. Toronto where I lived for 14 years I think is the second most gay friendly city in the world second only to San Francisco. So yeah I guess I am slightly skewed to seeing more people as gay friendly.

I still have to disagree with you Jester, I think censoring speech does more harm than good, and I think a larger portion of society is more educated than you think.

I’ve seen the statistics you have on gay youth. I think that they are interpreted incorrectly by a lot of people too. 1 in 10 people are gay. It’s confusing and scary and depressing to grow up knowing that only 10% of the world are like you and you have now way of knowing which 10%. I think those youths are smart enough to know that the gamer term isn’t referencing gay people.

Branden - I’m not even going to touch that one.

Dave - I guess I am more cynical than you are. I also grew up (and still have many relatives there that I visit occasionally) in the Bible Belt of the US. I think your view is definitely skewed based on where you live and the people you have apparently been lucky enough to surround yourself with.

I’m not trying to “censor” anyone’s speech. I’m pointing out that I personally find the term gay in that type of negative context offensive. I’m not suggesting that anyone be put to death or have their sites shut down. I’m merely pointing out that I am making the conscious decision to no longer associate with people who insist on using the term in spite of knowing that I find it offensive. I don’t like the program, so I’m changing the station. You are of course free to watch it.

You can disagree with me. You can think I’m an idiot, or too sensitive, or whatever… the beautiful thing is that you don’t have to visit anymore.

That’s hardly censorship.

Communication is ALWAYS, almost by definition I believe, an equation with two parts.

Sender, Receiver.

The intent matters. So does the perception of the receiver. Not one more than the other. BOTH matter. And for EFFECTIVE, PRODUCTIVE communication to take place - both the sender and receiver would be wise to take into account the other person’s intent and/or perception.

Oddly enough - intent and perception are both pretty subjective ideas (which Avi tells me means based on your personal opinion), not facts to be argued.

Heck I still use “gay” to mean “happy”.

*feels old*

This is a very interesting debate. I dissuaded (meaning a “slap” to the head) my sons from saying “that’s gay”, “faggot”, or “n”. I’m not silly enough to believe they didn’t say those words because we lived in East Tennessee and they were young teens. That is life, and it is horribly cruel most of the time.

I hope you’ll forgive me because I didn’t have time to read all of the comments here. I’m sure they’re very good, but hey, it’s Friday night in Singapore!

I’d like to go back to whoever it was that discussed language evolution. What do you think of the word “fuck”? FUCK was NOT used 30 years ago in everyday conversations. It’s true, I can attest to it because I was THERE! And, I can promise you that most people my age and older are very distraught to hear that word. Yes, DISTRAUGHT. It makes them sick to their stomachs.

Is it just another word, like “gay”?

Does the word FUCK make you sick to your stomach? Honest question from some old gal who lives in a different world.

Geeky, I love the work “fuck”. I think it’s the dirtiest word I use. But I don’t use it in front of children or generally in front of my mom because I know that it’s disrepectful to do so. (even though my mom uses it too. But I don’t cuss in front of my “elders” or people who I think might be offended by it) It doesn’t make me sick, it makes me giggle. the “C” word turns my stomach though and I do hear it more frequently used in casual conversation.

“the beautiful thing is that you don’t have to visit anymore.”

Is this an invitation to leave? I’m still in debate mode here trying to keep to intelligent conversation, but since I commented last there has been some name calling and hurt feelings and I really am not interested in coming across as a “bad guy” for having an opposing view.

Dave: I enjoy your thoughts and opposing view. While I don’t agree with you I am glad you are here speaking your mind. Your thoughts are actually intelligent and thought out. Please don’t let a little snarkiness drive you away

i’ve never known jester to tell anyone to leave. he says leave if you don’t like what he writes or he will stop reading and participating on another’s blog, but i can’t see him telling you to leave because you don’t agree that the word gay is being used in a way that negatively portrays homosexuals. how you can’t see and admit that is beyond me, but jester is man enough to discuss the subject without blocking you or telling you to fuck off. i would have resorted to name calling a long, long time ago if i were him.

Dave - Jester is not inviting you to leave. I know for sure he enjoys the discussion.

He was giving an example of the difference between censoring and choosing not to listen to listen to people that offend him, and point out that you (and by you I think he means everyone) has that choice so why shouldn’t he. That’s how I took it.

I know for a fact he doesn’t want you to leave the discussion. I don’t think he wan’ts Dawn to leave the discussion.

@Orthune
Well while we are talking about Dawn I think both Jester and Brandon owe Dawn an apology. When you invite someone to a debate you are going to hear opinions that you don’t agree with. When you attack them for the opinions that they provided it is no longer a debate, it’s a confrontation.

It’s Jester’s invitation, it’s his forum, he has all the power in this comment section. As soon as Brandon called Dawn a bitch he should have been all over it as the person who has the power to moderate. She came as invited and gave her opinion. She doesn’t deserve name calling.

Dave - I’m telling you how I took his comments. And I happen to know FOR A FACT that he’s not inviting you to leave.

I can’t speak for the name calling and I never tried to.

I guess if you want to read it as an invitation to leave you can, but it does come with the caveat about leaving if you think he’s an idiot.

So, please (on my part) only leave if you think he’s an idiot.

Miss Britt - The only fact that I’ve tried to raise here is that some people (myself included) find the use of the term “gay” as a substitution for “lame” or other negative adjective offensive. The response I received was arrogant and aggressive. Not exactly the best approach for communication.

kate1976 - Thank you. Thank You. THANK YOU. You have perfectly summed up my intent of this post: “What I didn’t really appreciate is how by perpetuating a usage in that way, it made it OK and socially acceptable. Which makes me no better than those people that really mean it.” That was EXACTLY what I wanted to communicate. It just took me two posts and a hundred comments to make it.

Da Duck - I often say to my friends, “We’ll have a gay old time!” Gotta love the Flintstones.

Hello - My blood pressure is fine… I am not “having a fit” as I have been characterized over at webmiztris’s place. This is a world with many many diverse people in it, and it isn’t hard to imagine that I myself have offended others in the past with some language I have used. I eschew political correctness for political correctness’s sake. However, if someone who I valued pointed out to me that I had unintentionally offended them (which is what I was originally doing, remember?), my response would not be one of anger, arrogance or righteousness.

so your blood pressure is fine and mine is sky high over some people’s response. huh!

Geeky Tai-Tai - I think a major difference in the word “Fuck” is that there isn’t a group of oppressed people out there who self-identify with the word. I don’t see any one marching in “Fuck Pride Parades” or trying to get “Fuck Marriage” laws passed.

Gina - Aah.. but the C word is different, isn’t it? (”cunt” for the confused) That word has been used in exactly the way that gay is being used now… a term for the female anatomy turned into an insult meant to disparage someone or something. It’s a good example, and also a word that I hate.

Dave - I’m certainly not inviting YOU specifically to leave. I was speaking in generalizations. I enjoy the debate and your arguments have so far been made without the arrogance of some others.

Daniel - Was I being snarky? I didn’t think I was…. I didn’t mean to be…

hello - I’ve only ever blocked one person from this blog… the guy who was simply using my site as an anti-gay hate speech platform… I try to keep myself from getting into the personal realm of name calling… it is hard on occasion.

Othurme - You read that exactly as I intended it.

Dave - While I understand the point you are trying to make, I see no reason to censor the discussion. Branden expressed his opinion based on the comments Dawn herself left, and as she has evidenced, she is more than able to defend herself. I think if you look back over the discussion you will see the comments from Gina in which she stated that “bitch” is offensive as well. Branden was making what I read as an ironic humorous allusion to Gina’s comment. Similar to my usage of “That’s So Gay” as the title of this post. Does Dawn owe me an apology because her readers are calling me “a fucking queer” on her site? Nope.

Othurme - You don’t have to leave even if you think I’m an idiot. All I’m saying is that it remains your choice (meaning everyone’s) to do so.

Hello - yes my blood pressure is just fine. You’re getting upset enough for both of us I guess.. thanks!

Lol I disagree with your assessment this time too. I think even if she doesn’t agree with you she should definitely be calling them to task for calling you a “fucking queer”.

Dave - Actually, I think the differences between our blogs (mine and Dawn’s) is more than obvious now… while on my blog there has been one person who dared call her a name (bitch), her comments are full of people taking pleasure in bashing mine. :shrug: I’m really not thin skinned. I’m not holding my breath for apologies.
Othurme - If I weren’t running late for a gig, you know, with my GAY BAND, I’d go for it.

Ah, yes, you’re quite right and your point is well taken regarding fuck pride parades. Although, those might be kinda fun ;0)