That’s So Gay
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I hate sounding like one of those whiny activist-types who turns red in the face anytime an off-color joke gets told in my presence. I can generally laugh along with a good gay joke, because, let’s face it, some stereotypes ARE true. And funny.
The truth is, when someone tells a joke that holds the potential of being offensive, they are aware of it. They will glance around nervously before telling a story in which a black man, a rabbi, or a fag ends up looking like a fool. They will drop their voice and move in closer as if the joke is an important secret. The audience will laugh heartily, clap each other on the back, and say “That’s just TERRIBLE!”
Everyone acknowledges that the joke was just awful and the teller should be ashamed of himself, and then they each share the great joke that heard last week and the cycle repeats itself.
What has drawn my ire today is not the jokes told in little circles at parties.
What is making me a red-faced activist today is the innocuous off-the-cuff statements by hordes of pre-teens and not a few adults who should know better.
Let me spell this out for you in a way that is impossible to misunderstand:
“Gay” is NOT a synonym for “Lame” or “Dorky” or “Stupid” or “Crappy” or any other negatively charged adjective.
I used to play XBox Live. I really enjoyed playing these games with other people around the world, flying planes, hunting aliens and the like. But I found myself getting mad at all the 11 year olds who would scream, “This sucks! This game is so gay!” I couldn’t stand listening to them calling each other “Fags” and “Homos” when they really meant, “You’re a bonehead.”
I tried several times to correct these kids, and tell them that they were being offensive. Often the kids hadn’t given their words any thought and once they realized what they were saying they stopped. One 15 year old I talked to actually thanked me for making him think about what he was saying… his brother was gay and it just didn’t occur to him that he was reinforcing the idea that gays are bad.
I eventually gave up playing the games because it was just too negative.
Language is sneaky. We are easily manipulated by the way words are used to sell us on ideas. Advertisers have known this for decades. You can be certain the government knows this.
Do you think “The Patriot Act” would have passed through Congress if it had been called “The Retraction of American’s Civil Rights?”
I don’t think so.
One of my favorite bloggers recently described something as “fucking gay” when it was clearly meant as “lame.” Commenters on the post continued the use of “gay” to mean everything from “annoying” to “stupid.”
I know it wasn’t meant to be offensive to me or any other gay people, but the fact remains that using a word that defines a major part of my self-identity to mean “lame” or “unworthy” or “stupid” really does offend me.
If I thought the blogger was intentionally being bigoted, I would call them out. If I thought that the blogger had a real problem with gay people, I would link to the post and get my “Flaming Fuck You” finger ready…
Instead, I just want to point out to everyone that you should really be careful what language you use. Think about the origin of the slang you use. Realize that the seemingly innocuous things you write could have a negative effect on your readers.
Categories: Rant
I spend a lot of time correcting teens. I work at a high school so I hear it all day…eventually I just start calling them on the whole “thats so gay” thing. I would usually throw a dictionary at them and tell them to find me the part where it says that Gay means anything negative. One day after a student called another one gay in negative context. I said “go look up the work gay, you will find that gay means happy or with joy….well when he looked in the dictionary the first definition was that gay means homosexual, or someone who acts in homosexual ways. I was stunned for bit….WTF is that about….wait, where was I going with that?…hmm…Goodnight. (lol)
by Branden on Jul 18, 2007 at 12:53 am
Branden – how does one act in a homosexual way? Does that mean prancing about with a limp wrist, or giving a blowjob?
by jester on Jul 18, 2007 at 1:23 am
I use “gay” in that sense sometimes without thinking. But usually I use it when I’m telling my friends that they’re actually acting gay. Which is now synonymous with metrosexual, I think.
If everybody would just use “retarded” when they mean “lame” or “boneheaded”, we’d all be happy. Well, except for retards. But just give them some ice cream.
by Avitable on Jul 18, 2007 at 6:08 am
see, damn avi made me laugh and i probably shouldn’t have. thanks for proving jester’s point that i am lame. sigh.
honestly jester, i have accidentally said something or someone was “gay” when i meant “stupid.” as soon as it flies out of my mouth i think “that is not what i meant to say” so usually i verbally mention my mistake. but i promise to make a better effort to just not say it. because i don’t mean to be so stupid myself!
by hellohahanarf on Jul 18, 2007 at 6:38 am
Sheesh! Now I am scared of that Flaming Fuck You finger showing up…
by DutchBitch on Jul 18, 2007 at 8:39 am
Ok I have to disagree with you on this one.
I too am an online player of video games. I here this all the time and I know that the word isn’t being used in reference to gay people at all it is being used like you said as a synonym for lame, dorky, stupid, crappy, etc.
It’s an evolution of language, it happens. There are 22 different meanings for the word “set”. How did the word gay start being used to refer to homosexuals? Same way, evolution of the language.
If the word is being used in such a way as not referring to you and not meaning any malice, why would you be offended?
If I said you had a black sense of humor, should black people become offended because I mean you are morbid?
Why did the people fleeing the area of Katrina get offended because they were referred to as refugees? They were seeking refuge. It’s a completely legitimate use of the word, but since it was equated for a long time with immigrants coming into the country that a lot of people didn’t want to bring in, they equated the word with something they didn’t like.
In this particular instance, I do believe that the person who came up with using the word gay, in this was was definitely using it as a bash towards gays, but it has since evolved. It no longer carries the sexual gay reference but is instead just a teenspeak thing.
I love that you brought this topic up and I hope you don’t mind the voluminous post in your comment section.
by Dave on Jul 18, 2007 at 9:07 am
Wow. Dave actually makes a pretty good point.
ANYway, I was thinking how ironic it is that I get so lazy with my own speech. I use the word “gay” sometimes, “retarded” wayyy more than I care to admit to myself – and God only knows what else when I’m just being careless.
I remember my mom getting pissed at my brothers when they would call each other “girls” as an insult. And I remember ripping into my husband when he did the same thing. My reasoning being that being a “freaking GIRL” is not the worst thing imaginable for fuck’s sake, ya know?
Anyway.. heh… um… great post. Awesome comments.
by Miss Britt on Jul 18, 2007 at 9:42 am
Avitable – Metrosexual isn’t synonymous with gay. It’s almost an antonym. Metrosexuals are guys who have figured out they can take advantage of more women if they spend just a little time dressing up like a gay guy. LOL @ the retard comment. ::looks around nervously::
hello – That’s all I’m asking. Be more aware of the language you use!
Dutchy – LOL.. that’s good.. you should always have just a slight sense of fear of receiving the finger… Fear the finger!
by jester on Jul 18, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Well, yea, not a synonym, exactly. But a straight man who is being very metrosexual might be confused for a gay man at times, too. And if you keep your ice cream handy, we’ll be safe.
by Avitable on Jul 18, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Dave – While I understand your argument, I’m afraid that you’re forgetting my point. I know that people aren’t REALLY meaning to equate “lame” with being gay, but language is subversive; the brain starts making the connection. That’s dangerous.
The word “black” is evolving in the opposite direction. The black community has done a very good job of embracing previously derogatory words and turning them into something they self-identify with.
The fact that it’s become “teenspeak” doesn’t make it ok. Picture teens who are struggling with their own sexuality being surrounded daily by people using the word gay to describe negative things.
I love voluminous comments.;)
by jester on Jul 18, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Miss Britt – The analogy of girl is pretty close to the one I’m making. There are so many other worse things to be… How about instead of “gay” we use “dog torturer” or “polka lover” or “unibrow”?
Avitable – I’ve made the mistake of confusing a metrosexual with a gay guy. Best sex of my life.
by jester on Jul 18, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Several years ago, I inadvertently outed myself to a segment of my extended family when I “educated” the two of the teens at the dinner table who were saying, “that’s so gay” about some crackhead behavior being displayed by one of their friends. The adults just stopped mid-trip with the fork to the mouth and you could see lightbulbs going off all over. Oh, wait, should I expect the crackheads to protest my earlier characterization? Oy.
by Lori on Jul 18, 2007 at 5:34 pm
I am afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree. I am not forgetting your point, I just don’t agree with you.
My sister is living in Scotland where the language is used much differently. In Canada where we are from to refer to an Asian person as a “Chinkie” or a Pakistani person as a “Paki” would be the equivalent of walking up to them and punching in the face. But in Scotland if you are going for Chinese food, it is perfectly normal to say, “Let’s go for Chinkie”.
While my sister finds it racist everyone in Scotland that she has confronted about it put her in her place.
I feel the same way, I know that the word gay when used in that context is not meant as a slur, and I would never try and walk on eggshells and not use the term in front of a gay friend. If they called me on it I’d tell them to get bent
Same thing with the word gyp. If I feel cheated I have no problem saying that I feel gypped even though the word originated as a racial slur against Romanian gypsy’s the word has evolved to the point where many people don’t remember that it was at one time incredibly offensive.
by Dave on Jul 18, 2007 at 7:31 pm
Dave – There was a time in the US where the word “nigger” was used daily and acceptable (still is, I suspect). It was only offensive to a minority, despite widespread usage. Common use does not excuse offense, whether you are in Scotland, Canada, or on Castro Street in San Francisco.
If I were your gay friend and you used the term “gay” in a derogatory sense in front of me, despite knowing that I (and many others) find it offensive, I would punch you directly in the crotch.
Using the word “gyp” despite knowing that it is an incredibly offensive word would make you an asshole, and THAT my friend is a word that is the same in any language.
by jester on Jul 18, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Lori, the crackheads are too busy trimming the lawn with nail clippers to care.
Meanwhile, Jester, I totally agree with you. But unlike many, I recognize a time not so long ago when the word gay had nothing to do with homosexualty and everything to do with being happy. But then, it wasn’t so long ago that the term “retarded” was an acceptable way to describe a person with developmental disorders and “mongoloid” was an accepted term for those with Down’s Syndrome. It’s amazing how words can become offensive.
Sadly, we live in a society that harbors a great many people who do think there is something wrong with being homosexual. Who refuse to understand that it’s the way you’re built, not a choice that you made.
Education. Speaking of which, Dave, thank you for the origins of the term “gyp” I will consider that every time I feel as though I have been cheated. Thank you.
by ginamonster on Jul 19, 2007 at 12:10 am
Gina – I remember hearing my grandparents using the word “Mongoloid.” It took forever for me to figure out what they meant. I was always going, “What does that Down’s kid have to do with Genghis Khan?”
I’m not so concerned about what true homophobes call me or think about me. I’m more concerned about those people who I know don’t harbor any homophobic thoughts perpetuating an epithet without really knowing what they were doing.
Yeah, you shouldn’t feel “gypped” and you should never try to “jew” someone down on the price.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 12:49 am
how about i never even knew how to spell gyp, let alone its origin. learn something new every day.
and jester, i love that you said asshole is the same in any language. made my morning.
by hellohahanarf on Jul 19, 2007 at 5:35 am
These comments are all British. (I’m starting a new one, here and now.)
by othurme on Jul 19, 2007 at 7:51 am
LOL, that’s me you’re talking ’bout…ha! yes, I use the phrase ‘fucking gay’ all the time. I honestly can’t think of any better way to describe a keytar, for example, other than to say it’s “fucking gay”. Lame or stupid isn’t quite right. However, it has nothing to do with actual gay people. It’s like ‘fag’ meaning a gay person and ‘fag’ meaning a cigarette. No relation whatsoever.
by Webmiztris on Jul 19, 2007 at 10:01 am
Webmiztris – What you just put up IS lame….Why the heck would you say something like “fucking gay” and then turn around and say it has nothing to do with what people now perceive gay to mean? Even if you were trying to say that you are referring to gay being a happy go luck thing, that wouldn’t hold water because saying “fucking gay” about something that makes you upset would mean that the word fucking and the word gay both have negative connotation attached to them. And yet another bad example for the word fag. Fag comes from the term to burn a bundle of sticks…they gave that nick name to homosexuals because they used to burn them at the stake along with “witches” and crazy people that they just didn’t like. It is like calling a jewish person… SOAP! So GOOD FOR YOU!!!!, you look incredibly stupid.
Sorry Jester
by None of your buisness on Jul 19, 2007 at 10:46 am
Fagot
–noun
1.a bundle of sticks, twigs, or branches bound together and used as fuel, a fascine, a torch, etc.
2.a bundle of pieces of iron or steel to be welded, hammered, or rolled together at high temperature.
by Branden on Jul 19, 2007 at 10:53 am
Ok, the point is made about word evolution. The “people” at the root of the evolution meant for this to happen. Whether it was a couple of teenage punks or some well organized anti-gay organization, they would be proud of this evolution which you are participating in. Whatever the case, be certain that the church, our current government, and the KKK are happy to have you making this argument. They would truly consider you an ally in the “good fight”.
Rather than take a stand and argue on the side of an issue that offends and hurts peoples’ feelings, it would make you a way better person to say “At least one person is hurt by this, and now I understand that, and choose not to participate in the evolution of this word” and maybe try to help turn that evolution the other diection.
by othurme on Jul 19, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Hello – Glad I could help.
Othurme – I’m not sure that one will catch on.
Webmiztris – You’re not making me feel any better about not calling you out on this. Do you not realize that you are using the word “gay” to mean something that is even lower on the scale than “lame” or “stupid?” This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. It’s subversive. It puts the idea out there that gay = negative. It doesn’t matter what context you are trying to use it in… it’s offensive and hurtful. There is a relation between “fag” for gay person and cigarette. They are both things that are burned. Frankly, I can’t believe I’m even having this conversation with someone who I thought had an evolved intellect.
None of your Biz – Don’t be sorry. I’m glad that I have some back up. And another gay guy who understands just how offensive this is.
Branden – Don’t bother, I’m afraid those who insist on using “gay” to mean something offensive don’t really care much about whether or not they use the word faggot.
Othurme – I’m astonished at the argument that “because everyone else is using the word this way must make it acceptable” is being made by seemingly rational adults. It’s depressing is what it is.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Ok I still hope we’re in the realm of friendly debate, because I really do feel that I want to try and get my point across about this.
Here is how I feel…
When you get offended about a word that you know I am not using in an insulting way, you are doing a disservice to me. You are trying to force me to conform to your ideal when I don’t want to and when I don’t feel it’s necessary.
Ironically I’ll use Michael Richards as an example. Remember that Seinfeld episode where Kramer does the aids walk but doesn’t want to wear the ribbon? Why should he have to wear the ribbon?
If I know that the word sinister originated because of a suspicion of left handed people, am I never allowed to use the word sinister again for fear of offending someone left handed that is also well read?
If I have a gay friend that I know is offended when the word gay is used in the “lame” sense, I’ll never ever use it in front of him because I am polite and I am a good friend. But I am always going to think to myself that my friend is a little stupid to be offended by it.
Do you not see the irony in this argument as well when so many straight people try to make the same argument on the word marriage and how they believe it to be the union of one man and one woman?
If you get to say that we’re not allowed to use the word gay to ever mean “lame” I argue that from this day forth you are never allowed to use the word marriage to mean “2 guys or girls in a committed relationship”.
Because trust me there are people out there that are just as offended when you try to take that word from them, and if it’s just about not offending people then all sides have to play by the same rules.
Me, I’m all for gay marriage and that when playing online with my nephew in some video games and he says, “That’s gay” when I beat him with a lame trick, that’s ok too.
by Dave on Jul 19, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Part of me agrees with you, Dave.
But the other part of me thinks that getting offended when you associate “gay” with “lame” is just like getting offended with someone associates “jew” with “cheap”.
“Don’t be a jew.” – The meaning isn’t that you’re from Israel and don’t believe in the New Testament. It’s a meaning that has come from a stereotypical use of the word. Same thing with “gay”.
by Avitable on Jul 19, 2007 at 3:51 pm
I don’t see why everyone can’t be right here…except for maybe Jester.
Gay is lame. Lame is bad. Gay is bad. Jews are cheap.
It’s a well known mathematical equation. If A=B and B=C, then Jew are cheap. See?
by GW Bush on Jul 19, 2007 at 3:56 pm
After reading all the arguments, it occured to me that the negative use of the word “Gay” is for Jester similar to the use of the word “Witch” to me. It drives me crazy when someone is called a Bitch when the person doing the insulting really means Bitch. Sure, they rhyme, but they are not the same. Some witches are bitches, but not all bitches are witches, just as some gays are lame but not all lames are gay. Lame being a term to describe something bad as opposed to a more antiquated way to describe someone who is disabled.
Funny, there was a time when being called a witch or homosexual would get you burned…
I guess the point I am trying to make is that I have learned to translate in my head and not try to argue with people about meanings because words mean something diferent to different people. And if I cried foul every time someone was called a witch instead of a bitch, I’d never get anything done. Oh wait, I’m not getting anything done right now anyway…I’m not saying it’s right or ok, Jester, and I am not questioning your right to cry foul, especially since it has sparked such a facinating discussion. Some arguments just don’t have an easy solution.
by ginamonster on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Dave – Of course it’s still a friendly debate. I think your analogy of the Seinfeld episode is flawed. I’m not asking anyone to wear a ribbon and march in parades. I’m asking that you stop perpetuating a negative idea. I would go so far to say that if you were truly a good friend to your gay friends you would want to stop perpetuating the negativity.
“Marriage” is another can of worms entirely. I’ve said many times that using that term should be reserved SOLELY for couples who held ceremonies that involve the church. I think it’s possible for a couple to be “married” who aren’t legally contracted to each other and vice versa.
And in any case, I don’t see anyone using “marriage” as a insult to any one.
Why can’t you use the opportunity to teach your nephew that using negative stereotypes is harmful and perhaps have a conversation about how gay people aren’t evil nasty or lame?
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:18 pm
@Avitable
Certain words never evolved. “nigger” “jew(as cheap)” “kike” “spic”. All these words clearly intend to give offense and never changed to the point where the person using the word thought it wasn’t offensive.
I am arguing gay as “lame” has evolved and did so quickly and is at the point now where the majority of people using it never mean it to be offensive to gay people.
I believe the reason for this is the age of the people using it. It’s been picked up from the teen and pre-teen crowd who as a large majority have been raised to know that there is nothing wrong with being gay.
by Dave on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Dave, that’s where I think you’re wrong. I think that the teen and pre-teen crowd are still very susceptible to their parents’ views on things and that gay is still very, very wrong. It might be more accepted on TV, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay for most teens if they had a gay friend – they’re still very discriminatory.
by Avitable on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Avitable – Excellent analogy.
GW Bush – One of the clearest arguments you’ve ever made. It’s still wrong, but at least it’s clear.
Gina – Unfortunately, gays still find themselves being beaten and burned and left to die while tied up to fence posts. Countless others commit suicide because of all the negativity and their inability to cope. There really is an easy solution… use the right word for what you mean. If you mean someone is a bitch, say “bitch”. If you mean it’s stupid or lame, use the words “stupid” or “lame.” Why insist on going out of your way to insult and offend someone? Merely because it is your right to do so?
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Dave – According to the Center for Disease Control/Massachusetts Department of Education Youth Risk Behavior Survey (1999), 33% of gay youth will attempt suicide. In fact, gay teen suicide attempts are four times that of heterosexual youth. I don’t believe that a “large majority” have been raised to know that there is nothing wrong with being gay. Watch the news, listen to the debates on gay “marriage” and gays in the military. Look at the media coverage of pride events. It’s still being portrayed and sold to the public as an abomination and something to be derided.
Just because you don’t “mean it to be offensive” doesn’t change the fundamental fact that it is. I can piss on you and call it rain, that doesn’t make you want to splash in the puddles.
Avitable – Teens are probably the most discriminatory group. Junior High was hell. Yes, gay youth of today have it better than I did even 15 years ago, but they are still the subject of beatings and humiliation and even sexual assault every day in our high schools.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Jester, it’s the mindset not the word.
My nephew is 26 and knows very well that gay people aren’t nasty or lame. He like knows as do I, when he uses the word gay, in that context, he’s not referring to gay people, at all,ever. He as a matter of fact, was the first person I ever heard use the word in that context. And I called him on it. And he explained to me that all the gamers use the term and they aren’t referring to gay people and that is I thought so I was an old fart (which at 39 I am).
To them it was like the word “phat” Fat people (like I am) used to get offended at that term too.
If we started spelling the gamer usage “ghay” maybe that would satisfy everyone?
by Dave on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:40 pm
This is true, but I will never forget the time that a bunch of kids asked me if they could tie me to a stake. Or all the stories of students persecuted in high schools and accused to casting spells because they are out of the broom closet and some kid decided to make an issue of it. There are many Witches just as afraid to come out of the broom closet the way there are Gay folks afraid to come out. While there aren’t the beatings and killings, that I know of, the persecutions are still there. In my town, black people are still beaten for being black. White power runs rampant and symbols of the SS are painted brazenly on the windows of lifted trucks. Do you think I would consider hanging a pentacle from my rearview mirror?
I do use the right word for what I mean. I do not insult for the sake of offending. In this, I can only lead by example. I try not to bash other faiths or act all spooky so that when people do learn of my faith they learn that not all witches go around screeching curses and wearing big pointy hats, (i’ve yet to meet one that does, actually) just as not all gay men are feminine and boysterous about it. I think it’s great that you try to educate when possible, but this sort of ignorance extends to many different groups who have been traditionally unaccepted based on their beliefs. I don’t think I use the term “gay” to mean stupid, but I will certainly listen to myself and make sure I don’t in the future. When I was a teen, “lame” was the term to use when something was stupid. Can you imagine how surprised I was later, when one of m students told me something was “sick”? And they ment it as a good thing! I just smiled when one of them told me that if he ever met a real witch he would run away. (it was halloween time). I’m sure the current popular use of the word Gay will pass. Especially as kids grow up to realize that gay does not equal lame.
by ginamonster on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Dave – Words are the communication of ideas between people… even though you as the speaker don’t necessarily mean it to be offensive does not mean that the listener is aware of the connotation. As I’ve said several times, it’s subversive and sneaky. You are selling the subliminal idea that gay is bad or lame.
“Phat” was used as a compliment as I recall.
And while I appreciate the idea that some gamers have altered the spelling to “ghey” to distinguish between homosexuals and “lame” the fact remains that the word is still the same offensive usage.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Gina – I’ve known many Wiccans. I’ve never known one who did anything remotely dangerous or harmful. I think you could get away with hanging a pentagram from your mirror in your town… most of those ignorant assholes would just assume that you were into Motley Crue and Marilyn Manson. I find it fascinating that so many many years later, we are still debating the puritan’s actions and beliefs.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Jester – Stop being a butt-fucking pansy and admit that you’re wrong about this. I didn’t mean anything bad by butt-fucking pansy. I heard some guy use it on Everquest II, so I figured it evolved into acceptable.
by othurme on Jul 19, 2007 at 5:07 pm
[...] First for this BlogIt Has Come To My Attention…Cat HaikuWhat do these people have in common?That’s So GayLurkers [...]
by Jestertunes » That's So Gay Revisited on Jul 19, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Othurme – I’ll try not to take offense, you phat bastard.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Dave’s comment (and Avi’s and Britt’s, etc.) reflects my sentiments so exactly and I don’t think I can say it any better than that. Honestly, this PC crap (not just in regards to the ‘fucking gay’ thing, but in regards to EVERYTHING) is way too fucking much for me. I’m not PC, never have been, never will be, (anyone who’s read my blog for any amount of time should know that) and if you think the term ‘fucking gay’ is in reference to any object (keytar, for example) has ANYTHING to do with homosexuality… Well, I guess there’s not much I can do to convince you otherwise, but you’re wrong.
And GOOD LORD with the fag thing. I guarantee if you go to Europe and someone asks you if they can bum a ‘fag’, they’re not even THINKING about burning gay people at the stake! Lighten the hell up, people!
by webmiztris on Jul 19, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Jester: I am sorry but Gays being strung up on fences or teens committing suicide can’t be said to have a correlation to people using gay out of context. I think invoking such symbolism takes away from the original argument.
Dave: You say gay has evolved while jew has not. What is your your basis for that statement? Could that be because you find one acceptable and one you do not. There is no difference. I grew up thinking using Jew was acceptable. I never thought it was offensive. I think this is very similar to using gay. Many people don’t see it as offensive but it still is.
Myself I have taken the following stand on the issue. I try to educate people about the misuse of the gay in conversation. But when they don’t get it as they often don’t I would never stop being friends with someone over it.
by Daniel on Jul 19, 2007 at 8:57 pm
webmiztris – It has NOTHING to do with being politically correct, and everything to do with being rude and offensive. Calling someone “height-challenged” instead of “short” is politically correct. SHORT and HEIGHT CHALLENGED mean the same thing.
GAY does not mean the same thing as LAME.
We’re not talking about people in Europe who are using the term “fag.” We were merely pointing out the origin of that word as an insult to homosexuals. Europeans who are talking about cigarettes are actually using the term in a way that is at least close to the intended meaning. You actually set fire to a cigarette.
If you can’t get it through your head that regardless of whether you are talking about a keytar or an ugly purse or an idiot on the street, you are using an offensive term that perpetuates a negative stereotype.
Your continued usage, and your defense of its usage is a sign of ignorance and arrogance. I can’t make it any simper than that.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Daniel – My use of the image of gays being strung up on fences was merely an illustration of the fact that teens most certainly do NOT understand that being gay is fine. If teens really believed that, then suicide rates wouldn’t be astronomical. Assaults against gay teens would not be as frequent. The use of gay as a negative adjective perpetuates the oppressive atmosphere, especially among impressionable teens and pre-teens.
If a “friend” insists on using a term that you find offensive, despite your request that they stop using that term, they don’t deserve your friendship.
It’s not a matter of “lightening up.” It’s really a matter of more people getting pissed off by it and making it stop.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 9:10 pm
You can feel how you want to feel about it, Jester. It doesn’t change the fact that I’ll use the phrase when I see fit to use it. If that means you never visit my blog again, then I guess that’s the way it’s going to be. I don’t adjust who I am to suit the expectations of the people around me.
And you say “gay” doesn’t mean the same thing as “lame”. Well, I’m saying sometimes it DOES mean the same thing as “lame”. And other times? It means “happy”. And yet OTHER TIMES, it means “homosexual”. It’s just a WORD and like thousands of other words, it has many different meanings.
Your insisting that “gay” could even POSSIBLY be equated to “lame” in a derogatory way is practically comical to me also because most gay people are the complete opposite of lame. They’re bright, showy, and in-your-face with attitude.
None of this makes any sense to me. Nobody is offended at Avi’s today and the word “gaywad” is used in his post. To echo my earlier statement: Everyone needs to loosen the hell up.
by webmiztris on Jul 19, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Well I see your point about a friend insisting on using gay. But I think I have ever had a “friend” insist on using the term. And I don’t think people like webmiztris is not worthy of such a title.
But as you know I am an avid World of Warcraft of player. The other night I was talking to a good friend while playing and he commented something was gay. As soon as he said it he promptly corrected his mistake. I can not hold this against my friend. I understand that he hears thats gay all the time and as we know we copy language. He tries not to be offensive. I forgive him if he slips up. With a true friend it is a two way street.
by Daniel on Jul 19, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Daniel – the difference here is your friend recognized it and went out of his way to correct it for your sake. That indeed is a friend. Webmiztris is not making any apologies for who she is and what she says and seemingly wants other people to accept her by changing their beliefs on the subject to suit her vocabulary, while at the same time refusing to “adjust who I am to suit the expectations of the people around me”… Friendship really is a two way street, but not for her according to her own words.
by othurme on Jul 19, 2007 at 9:31 pm
“she seemingly wants other people to accept her by changing their beliefs on the subject”
huh? How on EARTH did you infer that? I’m not asking ANYONE to change their beliefs. Jester is the one asking ME to change my beliefs! Are you people fucking crazy?
Jester can feels how we wants to feel on the matter and I can feel how I want to feel! It just so happens that we disagree with each other on the subject and you know what? THAT’S OK.
by webmiztris on Jul 19, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Webmiztris – you ended your previous comment with “Everyone needs to loosen the hell up”, that’s just saying we should change because you won’t. Maybe you could loosen up and just try a little not to offend someone or make a small apology when you accidentally do.
You explained that you won’t change. And that’s ok too, but you keep coming back here discuss it. Whether our opinions are crazy or not we’re probably going to keep talking about it when you decide you’re tired of the discussion, which you probably already are.
by othurme on Jul 19, 2007 at 9:50 pm
You are absolutely correct: I’m tired of it and have nothing further to say on the subject anyway. I stand by everything I wrote in my previous comments.
by webmiztris on Jul 19, 2007 at 9:54 pm
webmiztris – Thank you so much for your permission to feel offended. I will, thank you. You completely contradict yourself, though… first you say, “I’m saying sometimes it [gay] DOES mean the same thing as ‘lame’” and then in the very next paragraph you say, “Your insisting that ‘gay’ could even POSSIBLY be equated to ‘lame’ in a derogatory way is practically comical…” Which is it? Gay means lame or no?
Daniel – Othurme nailed it right on the head… your friend acknowledged his mistake and you rightly let it go… no harm no foul. Persistant use of terms that are offensive to others without apology and even an arrogant stance that you aren’t being offensive reeks of bigotry.
webmiztris (2) – I’m not asking you to change your beliefs. I’m pointing out that your use of the word gay to mean lame is offensive. My whole point was that I didn’t really believe that you were homophobic, which is why it surprised me that you insisted on using a term that is patently homophobic. Now I’m not so sure that you don’t actually dislike gays. In fact, based on these comments and your blog post today, I’d easily believe you to be a hypocritical bigot… and that’s the worse kind.
by jester on Jul 19, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Although this is really late in the conversation on here..I just figured I would say on here that webmiztris is a bitch…and not in the dog way but in the she is a fucking bitch way. *wink*
by Branden on Jul 20, 2007 at 12:39 am
Shit step out of the room for a second and you miss so much.
Daniel I guess I base my large majority statement on every single person that I hang around with… I tend to hang around with well educated tolerant people. Jew as cheap has a serious literary work behind it (Merchant of Venice) but when it was taught to me in school in Canada we used it as a tool to break down the stereotype. Never around me has Jew (as cheap) been considered acceptable.
Avitable, I have only lived in big cities for the last 20 years. I can’t believe the generation gap between the kids I see and interact with today compared to my childhood. I rarely see parental influence good or bad, I see more commercial and mob mentality. The mobs of youth that I have dealt with have been very pro gay. Toronto where I lived for 14 years I think is the second most gay friendly city in the world second only to San Francisco. So yeah I guess I am slightly skewed to seeing more people as gay friendly.
I still have to disagree with you Jester, I think censoring speech does more harm than good, and I think a larger portion of society is more educated than you think.
I’ve seen the statistics you have on gay youth. I think that they are interpreted incorrectly by a lot of people too. 1 in 10 people are gay. It’s confusing and scary and depressing to grow up knowing that only 10% of the world are like you and you have now way of knowing which 10%. I think those youths are smart enough to know that the gamer term isn’t referencing gay people.
by Dave on Jul 20, 2007 at 12:50 am
Branden – I’m not even going to touch that one.
Dave – I guess I am more cynical than you are. I also grew up (and still have many relatives there that I visit occasionally) in the Bible Belt of the US. I think your view is definitely skewed based on where you live and the people you have apparently been lucky enough to surround yourself with.
I’m not trying to “censor” anyone’s speech. I’m pointing out that I personally find the term gay in that type of negative context offensive. I’m not suggesting that anyone be put to death or have their sites shut down. I’m merely pointing out that I am making the conscious decision to no longer associate with people who insist on using the term in spite of knowing that I find it offensive. I don’t like the program, so I’m changing the station. You are of course free to watch it.
You can disagree with me. You can think I’m an idiot, or too sensitive, or whatever… the beautiful thing is that you don’t have to visit anymore.
That’s hardly censorship.
by jester on Jul 20, 2007 at 3:08 am
Communication is ALWAYS, almost by definition I believe, an equation with two parts.
Sender, Receiver.
The intent matters. So does the perception of the receiver. Not one more than the other. BOTH matter. And for EFFECTIVE, PRODUCTIVE communication to take place – both the sender and receiver would be wise to take into account the other person’s intent and/or perception.
Oddly enough – intent and perception are both pretty subjective ideas (which Avi tells me means based on your personal opinion), not facts to be argued.
by Miss Britt on Jul 20, 2007 at 5:47 am
Heck I still use “gay” to mean “happy”.
*feels old*
by Da Duck on Jul 20, 2007 at 6:10 am
This is a very interesting debate. I dissuaded (meaning a “slap” to the head) my sons from saying “that’s gay”, “faggot”, or “n”. I’m not silly enough to believe they didn’t say those words because we lived in East Tennessee and they were young teens. That is life, and it is horribly cruel most of the time.
I hope you’ll forgive me because I didn’t have time to read all of the comments here. I’m sure they’re very good, but hey, it’s Friday night in Singapore!
I’d like to go back to whoever it was that discussed language evolution. What do you think of the word “fuck”? FUCK was NOT used 30 years ago in everyday conversations. It’s true, I can attest to it because I was THERE! And, I can promise you that most people my age and older are very distraught to hear that word. Yes, DISTRAUGHT. It makes them sick to their stomachs.
Is it just another word, like “gay”?
Does the word FUCK make you sick to your stomach? Honest question from some old gal who lives in a different world.
by Geeky Tai-Tai on Jul 20, 2007 at 7:50 am
Geeky, I love the work “fuck”. I think it’s the dirtiest word I use. But I don’t use it in front of children or generally in front of my mom because I know that it’s disrepectful to do so. (even though my mom uses it too. But I don’t cuss in front of my “elders” or people who I think might be offended by it) It doesn’t make me sick, it makes me giggle. the “C” word turns my stomach though and I do hear it more frequently used in casual conversation.
by ginamonster on Jul 20, 2007 at 8:09 am
“the beautiful thing is that you don’t have to visit anymore.”
Is this an invitation to leave? I’m still in debate mode here trying to keep to intelligent conversation, but since I commented last there has been some name calling and hurt feelings and I really am not interested in coming across as a “bad guy” for having an opposing view.
by Dave on Jul 20, 2007 at 9:25 am
Dave: I enjoy your thoughts and opposing view. While I don’t agree with you I am glad you are here speaking your mind. Your thoughts are actually intelligent and thought out. Please don’t let a little snarkiness drive you away
by Daniel on Jul 20, 2007 at 9:33 am
i’ve never known jester to tell anyone to leave. he says leave if you don’t like what he writes or he will stop reading and participating on another’s blog, but i can’t see him telling you to leave because you don’t agree that the word gay is being used in a way that negatively portrays homosexuals. how you can’t see and admit that is beyond me, but jester is man enough to discuss the subject without blocking you or telling you to fuck off. i would have resorted to name calling a long, long time ago if i were him.
by hellohahanarf on Jul 20, 2007 at 9:33 am
Dave – Jester is not inviting you to leave. I know for sure he enjoys the discussion.
He was giving an example of the difference between censoring and choosing not to listen to listen to people that offend him, and point out that you (and by you I think he means everyone) has that choice so why shouldn’t he. That’s how I took it.
I know for a fact he doesn’t want you to leave the discussion. I don’t think he wan’ts Dawn to leave the discussion.
by othurme on Jul 20, 2007 at 12:15 pm
@Orthune
Well while we are talking about Dawn I think both Jester and Brandon owe Dawn an apology. When you invite someone to a debate you are going to hear opinions that you don’t agree with. When you attack them for the opinions that they provided it is no longer a debate, it’s a confrontation.
It’s Jester’s invitation, it’s his forum, he has all the power in this comment section. As soon as Brandon called Dawn a bitch he should have been all over it as the person who has the power to moderate. She came as invited and gave her opinion. She doesn’t deserve name calling.
by Dave on Jul 20, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Dave – I’m telling you how I took his comments. And I happen to know FOR A FACT that he’s not inviting you to leave.
I can’t speak for the name calling and I never tried to.
I guess if you want to read it as an invitation to leave you can, but it does come with the caveat about leaving if you think he’s an idiot.
So, please (on my part) only leave if you think he’s an idiot.
by othurme on Jul 20, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Miss Britt – The only fact that I’ve tried to raise here is that some people (myself included) find the use of the term “gay” as a substitution for “lame” or other negative adjective offensive. The response I received was arrogant and aggressive. Not exactly the best approach for communication.
kate1976 – Thank you. Thank You. THANK YOU. You have perfectly summed up my intent of this post: “What I didn’t really appreciate is how by perpetuating a usage in that way, it made it OK and socially acceptable. Which makes me no better than those people that really mean it.” That was EXACTLY what I wanted to communicate. It just took me two posts and a hundred comments to make it.
Da Duck – I often say to my friends, “We’ll have a gay old time!” Gotta love the Flintstones.
Hello – My blood pressure is fine… I am not “having a fit” as I have been characterized over at webmiztris’s place. This is a world with many many diverse people in it, and it isn’t hard to imagine that I myself have offended others in the past with some language I have used. I eschew political correctness for political correctness’s sake. However, if someone who I valued pointed out to me that I had unintentionally offended them (which is what I was originally doing, remember?), my response would not be one of anger, arrogance or righteousness.
by jester on Jul 20, 2007 at 1:15 pm
so your blood pressure is fine and mine is sky high over some people’s response. huh!
by hellohahanarf on Jul 20, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Geeky Tai-Tai – I think a major difference in the word “Fuck” is that there isn’t a group of oppressed people out there who self-identify with the word. I don’t see any one marching in “Fuck Pride Parades” or trying to get “Fuck Marriage” laws passed.
Gina – Aah.. but the C word is different, isn’t it? (”cunt” for the confused) That word has been used in exactly the way that gay is being used now… a term for the female anatomy turned into an insult meant to disparage someone or something. It’s a good example, and also a word that I hate.
Dave – I’m certainly not inviting YOU specifically to leave. I was speaking in generalizations. I enjoy the debate and your arguments have so far been made without the arrogance of some others.
Daniel – Was I being snarky? I didn’t think I was…. I didn’t mean to be…
hello – I’ve only ever blocked one person from this blog… the guy who was simply using my site as an anti-gay hate speech platform… I try to keep myself from getting into the personal realm of name calling… it is hard on occasion.
Othurme – You read that exactly as I intended it.
Dave – While I understand the point you are trying to make, I see no reason to censor the discussion. Branden expressed his opinion based on the comments Dawn herself left, and as she has evidenced, she is more than able to defend herself. I think if you look back over the discussion you will see the comments from Gina in which she stated that “bitch” is offensive as well. Branden was making what I read as an ironic humorous allusion to Gina’s comment. Similar to my usage of “That’s So Gay” as the title of this post. Does Dawn owe me an apology because her readers are calling me “a fucking queer” on her site? Nope.
Othurme – You don’t have to leave even if you think I’m an idiot. All I’m saying is that it remains your choice (meaning everyone’s) to do so.
Hello – yes my blood pressure is just fine. You’re getting upset enough for both of us I guess.. thanks!
by jester on Jul 20, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Lol I disagree with your assessment this time too. I think even if she doesn’t agree with you she should definitely be calling them to task for calling you a “fucking queer”.
by Dave on Jul 20, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Dave – Actually, I think the differences between our blogs (mine and Dawn’s) is more than obvious now… while on my blog there has been one person who dared call her a name (bitch), her comments are full of people taking pleasure in bashing mine. :shrug: I’m really not thin skinned. I’m not holding my breath for apologies.
Othurme – If I weren’t running late for a gig, you know, with my GAY BAND, I’d go for it.
by jester on Jul 20, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Ah, yes, you’re quite right and your point is well taken regarding fuck pride parades. Although, those might be kinda fun ;0)
by Geeky Tai-Tai on Jul 20, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Hi
I stopped in from the Webmiz’s place to see what all the hype was about. I still don’t get it.
The word gay used to mean care free or happy, not homosexual. Big deal they changed the meaning of the word to something opposite, the same way they changed the meaning for the word sick. I’ve heard the word gay, meaning lame used since the 70’s. Have homosexuals even been using the word gay to refer to themselves longer than that ?
BTW my brother and his boyfriend are so gay! Lol. I’ll forward them your blog, I think they’ll like it but it’s hard to tell because sometimes they think other gays are “too gay” for them.
Toppers, twinks, tops, bottoms, bears… I’ll never get it.
by Bunny on Jul 20, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Ok, I tried to leave a response last night, but I guess it was too long so I got booted from the site briefly. So…I’ll try to sum it up this time. First, I’ve only seen one offensive comment on this particular post and feel that the majority of Jester’s readers have a little more class than to resort to name calling, usually. With that said…can anyone explain why it is a sin to “take the Lord’s name in vain?” My understanding is that of the point that Jester is trying to make. By taking the name in vain, it serves no positive reason. For thousands of years children have been scorned for doing this and it is now part of most christian religions and others. Why? Because to do so would “subconciously” relate something that reflects a being (human or not) to negative connotation. To do this over and over again, His name becomes related to such negative thoughts, that it “takes away from” his “image”. I think this is the point Jester is making. By using the word “gay” in a negative fashion, some people (friends, family, or easily influenced children) will eventually think of gays in a negative way.
To the author of the other blog, I respect your opinions, and like one of yours, I feel you don’t have to agree. That’s what makes us unique. I do however feel that if we were personal friends and you were offended by my actions or words, I would try not to do/say whatever it was that offended you. That’s just the way I was raised but understand that we (and by this I mean everyone) were raised differently and have our own ideals of common courtesy.
Thank you for having an opinion, but know that we can agree to disagree.
***Disclaimer***
Please don’t think I am the religious type throwing a Bible in your face or even want Jester to get started on the religious debates. I just immediately thought of this example and thought that MOST people could relate to it regardless of race, creed, religion, or sexual orientation.
by Toby on Jul 20, 2007 at 10:41 pm
@Toby
I’m an atheist too. We can debate and totally fix that obsession you have with your imaginary friend if you like.
by Dave on Jul 21, 2007 at 12:05 am
Geeky Tai-Tai – Sign me up for a float in THAT parade.
Fish – I would argue that stopping the negative usage of “gay” could do much in the pursuit for “world peace.”
Bunny – Homosexuals began using the term “gay” in the 1920’s. The difference between the word “gay” and the word “sick” is similar to “fuck” there aren’t people out there who self-identify as “sicks.” (At least not to my knowledge…) Sick in slang also because something positive. It’s a big deal because it’s offensive, and it makes the person who uses the term “gay” to mean “stupid” or “lame” or “annoying” look homophobic.
Toby – I don’t know why the internet ate your comment. Sorry about that. I would never have thought of the analogy you made. But yes, it is similar… you turn God’s name into a dirty word and it is harmful (even if you don’t believe in God). Why choose to use “gay” when there are so many better adjectives out there that AREN’T offensive?
Dave – We’ve touched on some of that subject around here in the past, but haven’t really tackled it… not like this, anyway. But I don’t think you’d have a lot of convincing to do with Toby… he’s not a religious person.
by jester on Jul 21, 2007 at 12:51 am
[...] posts in question are here: That’s So Gay and here: That’s So Gay [...]
by Gay = Lame? « Gay Men Rule on Jul 21, 2007 at 4:06 am
Dave – Thanks for the offer, but my imaginary friend and I are getting along just fine. In fact, I think he/she (not sure which, guess it depends on the time of the month) has gotten me through a lot tougher times. I’m not sure that I’m atheist, cause I do believe things happen for a reason, I’m just not sure what that reason is. If that is the definition of atheism, so be it.
Jester – My original comment made many more arguments for your point in a way that also gave a few of my own opinions. I feel it’s the same reason those of us that are gay don’t say “go straight” while giving driving directions. lol
by Toby on Jul 21, 2007 at 11:57 am
Personally, I’m not offended by the term. What offends me is the blatant refusal to refrain from using a term, ANY TERM, that offends someone else. That appalls me to no end and hence the reason for this debate. If feelings get hurt along the way, the first apology should go to the person who is offended, the everyone can be “sorry” to the person offended for having such a small world that they think their actions do not affect others. It’s ok to stick to your words if you so choose, but don’t use them in a sense that offends. Go back to using whatever it was you used 5-10 years ago before this phrase became popular. I’m not recommending that you apologize for anything, just acknowledge that you offended someone (actually a few more than just Jester) and TRY/MAKE AN ATTEMPT/ACT LIKE you will not use that particular term in that way in the future. It is only courteous. I say this because to not do so becomes down right offensive. Again, hence this debate. No blood no fowl (or foul for the PETA lovers). lol
by Toby on Jul 21, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Whoops, that was supposed to read that once the offended has the first apology, we can all be “sorry” for the offender for the above reasons. My bad. I apologize.
by Toby on Jul 21, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Toby – I think arguing with Dawn on this point is like trying to teach a pig to sing, it will only frustrate you and annoys the hell out of the pig.
by jester on Jul 21, 2007 at 1:47 pm
My next door neighbour used the word ‘gay’ to mean lame or stupid. I was offended by it.
I retaliated by substituting his name “Paul” to mean lame or stupid. In less than 5 days he got the point, he’s never done it again in front of me!
by Mike Deakin on Jul 22, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Mike Deakin – Welcome! That would be hysterical, except my name is also Paul.
by jester on Jul 22, 2007 at 11:28 pm
OMG. This whole topic is “fucking gay”… get over it.
by Tracy on Jul 23, 2007 at 9:08 am
Tracy – That really is the most eloquent comment on here. You should be a writer! How were you able to put all those words together in such a meaningful order?
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 9:41 am
Must be my “fucking gay” gene coming out… who knows. Or maybe you’re just too “fucking retarded” to understand english.
by Tracy on Jul 23, 2007 at 9:59 am
:::stands and applauds:::
BRAVO! BRILLIANT! MORE!!!
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 10:02 am
@Toby
Do you believe that if one child in a school has a peanut allergy that no child in the whole school should be able to bring a peanut butter sandwich to school for lunch?
@Everyone
Watching my language because 1 person/group might be offended is giving that 1 person/group the power over everyone. I refuse to allow my life to be dictated by others. I am not a homophobe or a racist, and I won’t “watch my language” in an effort to “protect the feelings” of other people. I know that if I ever use gay as “lame” I’m not bashing gay people. Anyone who knows me will know this as well. I generally don’t go around saying gay(as lame) because it’s the term of the week/month/year. I generally use the word lame when I see something that is lame. But I’m not consciously avoiding it because I don’t find it offensive.
I’m the guy out there on the street that if he sees 4 guys bashing another guy on the street because he’s a “fag” is gonna call the cops for backup and then dive right in to try and save him. And I’ll tell you another thing that Dawn is a woman that would do the same.
For every person that you alienate by calling a bigot or a homophobe when they use “offensive words” that you know that they don’t equate with gay people, you run the risk of them not being there for you when it matters in “real life” in the voting booths, when same sex legislation comes up, or on the streets when some homophobic assholes get drunk.
You have the right to be offended by anything you want, but you don’t have the right vilify those whose opinions you don’t agree with. While discussions in this comment section have generally been civil I feel they’ve definitely been skewed to have a “fuck you dissenter” overtone to them. You don’t “care about Jester’s feelings” so you’re a bad person or you “just don’t get it”.
Jester, you say you aren’t censoring anyone. I’ll take a page from Brandon:
Main Entry: 1cen·sor
Pronunciation: ’sen(t)-s&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, Roman magistrate, from censEre to give as one’s opinion, assess; perhaps akin to Sanskrit samsati he praises
1 : a person who supervises conduct and morals: as a : an official who examines materials (as publications or films) for objectionable matter b : an official (as in time of war) who reads communications (as letters) and deletes material considered sensitive or harmful
2 : one of two magistrates of early Rome acting as census takers, assessors, and inspectors of morals and conduct
3 : a hypothetical psychic agency that represses unacceptable notions before they reach consciousness
Censoring is EXACTLY what you are trying to do. You are trying to impose your moral beliefs on my speech and trying to repress what you think is an unacceptable notion before it reaches public consciousness.
When you equate gay as “lame” being offensive to homosexuals, you are saying that the people using the expression are equating it with gay people.
I maintain that when you take this stance you are going to perpetuate the negativity. To me it’s a cry wolf issue. The wolf is not hiding in the bushes on this one. Next time you cry wolf, I’m not going to run here as fast.
Choose your battles well, in my opinion this one isn’t worth fighting. Every battle you fight and lose affects the outcome of the war to be treated equally. I for one want the war to be over sooner.
by Dave on Jul 23, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Dave – Jester didn’t pick a battle, the battle was brought here.
Your own definitions of censorship include words like “official”, “magistrate”, and “agency”. That’s the key part to the definition of censorship. It beings in power over others trying to control or limit what the others are trying to say. Jester is in no way a controlling power over you, or Dawn, or anyone else. He’s just a person that was offended by what she said and when he said so, a battle was brought here by people calling him overly sensitive and telling him to stop telling them what they can say. Jester never said what Dawn could or couldn’t say, he only explained how it would be taken by him and probably others.
I don’t see how you think that’s censorship.
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 1:20 pm
I whole heartedly believe in free speech. I agree that we should be free to use whatever language we see fit, when we choose to do so.
Therefore from this day forward, I will use the word ‘nigger’, as an adjective for dark brown. I will use the word ‘redneck’ to describe anyone who does not live in an urban setting. I will use the word ‘fish’ instead of the noun ‘woman’. I will use the word ‘breeder’ when talking about heterosexuals. I will use the word ‘asshole’ to describe anyone who thinks that gay people are psychic and that we should just ‘know’ that someone isn’t being offensive when using the word ‘gay’ to mean ‘pathetic’, ‘lame’ or ’stupid’. I’m gonna start to use the word ‘blonde’ to mean ‘dumb’, ’stupid’ and ‘pathetic’…Why? Because I’m worth it!
by Mike Deakin on Jul 23, 2007 at 1:39 pm
dave, i can appreciate what you are trying to say, but i have a difficult time believing that you don’t “censor” yourself every day. i’m pretty much willing to bet from your well written comments that you aren’t mother fucking, god damning, son of a bitching, etc, in front of your children, your neighbor’s children, your nieces and nephews, your parents, strangers walking down the street, your boss, your subordinates, your friends at the country club dinner, your wife, etc. i bet you choose to “censor” yourself daily because someone might be offended to hear you say cunt or asshole or dick or fuck. you don’t want you children growing up saying fuck this and fuck that so you avoid saying fuck this and fuck that. why is it so different to censor yourself from taking a term many people are self identifying with and turning it into a negative word that can do more harm than good in the long run? why not keep your children from saying it simply by leading by example. that is all any of us are asking others to do. think before you speak and lead by example.
by hellohahanarf on Jul 23, 2007 at 1:44 pm
I know I promised I was done with this thread, but I couldn’t resist. I had to thank Dave to bringing up something I never even thought to mention. He says people might think he’s homophobic as a result of saying certain things he may say, but it doesn’t matter because he, himself, knows he’s not homophobic. That’s me. If I were homophobic, why I do only support presidents, etc., who pro- gay marriage? I personally think it’s ridiculous that anybody could be anti- gay marriage and have blogged about it several times in the past (namely, 2004 when we were getting ready for elections and the gay marriage thing was such a popular issue). Yet somehow I’m a homophobe? I don’t think so. I’m 100% aware of my own feelings on the issue, thank you very much, but thanks so much for pushing what YOU think my feelings are on me and the rest of your readers, Jester.
by webmiztris on Jul 23, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Dave,
Did you read this post? I’m curious, because you mention censorship as if someone is trying to censor someone else. Let me highlight the parts of the post that are relevant to this conversation.
No where in this did he mention who the blogger was. And please notice that he made a point of saying that he didn’t think that blogger bigoted. No where did he say that everyone should shut the fuck up. He asked people to think about the slang they use. Consider the history of the phrases they utter. “That’s so gay” is used in this particular instance to refer to something that is undesirable, laughable, shameful. There is nothing endearing about the phrase and, in fact, came about in an effort to denigrate gays. Continued use only emboldens the bigots and gives them more reason to use it. But to use it is your prerogative, Jester only wanted to express his feelings on it.
Anything that happened after that cannot be laid at his feet.
by Jennyjinx on Jul 23, 2007 at 1:54 pm
See…told you all gays are psychic!
by Mike Deakin on Jul 23, 2007 at 1:54 pm
When you think one thing and display another, don’t be surprised when people only know what you display.
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Jester :::with hypnotic yellow spirals in my eyes::: – thanks all mighty jester for telling us lowly commenters what we should think!
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 2:00 pm
@Othune
Not my definition, pure copy and paste job out of the dictionary.
The “officials and magistrates” part of the definition are just examples of usage, but I argue that people who try and set themselves up as moral censures are trying to insinuate themselves into that position of power by accusing the opposing side of moral turpitude. (This is my homage to Berke Breathed I’ve always wanted to use moral turpitude in a sentence)
And Jester invited the debate here when asking for comments.
@Mike Deaken
I’ve made the argument that this particular usage has evolved to mean no disrespect. If you don’t agree that’s fine.
@Hellohahanarf
Of course I censor myself every single day. I live in the realm of polite society. But society has started turning language into a tool to label people. I’m not going to let it happen to me. If I am against illegal immigration, it doesn’t mean I’m racist. If I use the word gay to mean “lame” it doesn’t make me a gay basher. I do tend to lead by example and in this particular example I am leading by saying political correctness has gone too far in my opinion. And that’s all it is, my opinion.
@Webmiztris
No problem. I’ve lurked your site long enough to know what you are all about. I also know you aren’t ever going to argue a point eloquently and are more than likely going to be the first one to pull a “well fuck you card” in an argument/debate. Know that I still love you anyway
@JenniJinx
I most certainly read every single word of the post and every single word in the comment section. Most of my last comment was directed at the subsequent comments of the post. Did you read them?
Most people in this comment section think I’m wrong. I can respect that.
I never said the term was endearing or laughable. I said the term didn’t refer to gay people among the majority of people using the word in that sense.
Even in all this debate I still believe this because the only opposing viewpoints offered in response have essentially been, “well it is offensive, so there” and “well if you don’t see that you’re blind”
I am a big time gamer. I play WoW almost every day. I see this typed out a fair bit. The first few people I ever talked about it to always let me know, nope not referring to gay people. Ya know what? I’ll take them at their word, and if you will too how can it be offensive? Because if you’re offended you’re calling them liars.
by Dave on Jul 23, 2007 at 2:47 pm
the illegal immigration – political correctness connection doesn’t work for me. the way i see it, being opposed to “ILLEGAL” immigration is not being opposed to immigrants in general, just those who arrive here against the law. there should be a certain negativity associated with those who break the law.
but having gay = lame is just an idea that you can’t convince me is a good thing to perpetuate. and i myself have been VERY guilty of using it that way in the past. caught myself almost saying it over the weekend. but as a (reasonably) intelligent adult i will make the decision to not use “gay” or “retarded” when i mean lame or stupid. just no reason to when perfectly good words already exist. if i can avoid saying fuck in polite society, then i can avoid saying gay or retarded as well. i’m willing to do that for my friends. rather sad that you aren’t.
by hellohahanarf on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Just to tag on to Hello’s comment, “SO THERE!”
Because apparently that’s the only thing people say around here.
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Dave – leading by example would be not accepting the evolution of this word just because common “teenspeak” (your word, not mine) tells you it’s ok. Leading by example would be teaching those teens it’s not ok to use that word in such a way.
Using gay=lame because teens do is following their example.
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:13 pm
@hellohahahnarf
See this is exactly the attitude that I despise.
If I don’t conform I am not a friend. Ya know what, I’m not going to start smoking because it’s cool either. This isn’t about changing to be polite and respecting your friends, this is about standing up for what you believe in.
I believe I don’t have to agree with my friends on every issue out there and I’m telling you, “It’s not sad, so there” maybe that argument will hold some water for you.
by Dave on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:13 pm
You wouldn’t start smoking just cause your friends did, but if you were a smoker you might not smoke around them because it bothers them. Or maybe you wouldn’t.
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:19 pm
@Orthune
Is the teens speaking the “teenspeak” aren’t referring to gay people, then I have no problem with the evolution and don’t think there is anything wrong with it.
As I said I’ve spoken to many of the teens themselves. I’ll take them at their word.
My sister’s middle name is “Gay”. I don’t think she was offended when usage turned from “happy” to “homosexual” and I don’t think she’s all that concerned now that it’s used as “lame”. She knows what it meant when my parents named her.
by Dave on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:22 pm
@Othurme
Sorry for so mangling your moniker. The font color and style Jester uses doesn’t agree with my eyes apparently
by Dave on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:24 pm
i don’t agree with my friends on plenty of issues, that isn’t the problem here. but smoking or non smoking is not the same argument as gay = stupid, dave. you have to see that.
by hellohahanarf on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Orthune is not the worst thing I’ve been called on Jester’s site.
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Dave, I don’t understand why you would want to lead us by example, but take teenagers at their word instead of leading them by example. I think they need more.
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 3:38 pm
@Hellohahanarf
In the smoking example I thought you’d correctly associate standard “peer pressure” example for what it was. I wasn’t trying to equate language with smoking of course.
But the same principles apply, we “insert group here” all think this “insert ideal here” so you should think the same way. You don’t want to be different do you?
(The irony of having to point this out to someone who regularly reads this site is seriously killing me)
Today it is we (friends of gays everywhere) think (the use of the word gay as lame) is offensive, therefore you should think the same way.
Well I don’t. Peer pressure isn’t going to change my mind.
Othurme put it wonderfully into perspective for me when he mentioned smoking around non smokers. I wouldn’t smoke in front of a non smoker, because I feel I am infringing on their rights because they have to breath that air.
But if my friend didn’t like the color blue I’d still wear a blue shirt. But I wouldn’t wear a blue shirt to his wedding, how’s that for you?
If I think someone uses the gay as “lame” to put down gay people, I’ll call them on it, when I don’t think they are I won’t.
I’d like the same courtesy. Don’t assume my speech is meant to offend when you know me better. I think that’s what Dawn was trying to get across.
I brought up the word “phat” in an earlier example and how “phat” was offensive to fat people and it was dismissed out of turn by Jester because he “didn’t get it”. He said that “phat” meant good so you can’t use that word in this argument.
I didn’t get to rebut that at the time because I got caught up on something else but I’ll respond to it now. While “phat” was used to describe something good or cool, it was also used as an antonym to fat. People would be all offended when you used it on them, until you pointed out you meant “phat”. It gave credence to the fact that you were supposed to be offended to be fat and that’s why fat people didn’t like it and that’s why I brought it into this conversation.
Sometimes “Nova” means a chevy, sometimes it means no go. The marketing people don’t get to say how things get interpreted all the time. I’m in a different market than you.
Don’t make me analogize again .. it’s a sickness I just can’t stop ahhhhhhhhh.
by Dave on Jul 23, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Dave – This isn’t about peer pressure. No one here wants people to stop saying Gay=lame because it’s the cool thing to do. In fact if it really is common teenspeak, then apparently it’s the “cool” thing to say gay=lame, and maybe you should consider the peer pressure you might be succumbing to when the teens tell you “all us teens say that”.
No one in fact is even trying to make you do anything for any reason. Do what you like. We’re all here discussing why we don’t like what you (or at least want the right to) do.
We just want you to stop smoking your gay=lame cigarette around us (since that one seemed to hit home).
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 4:35 pm
@Othurme
But the discussion like the word has also evolved, or at least it has to me. We’ve been discussing several topics for a while now.
We’ve gone past the the word is offensive/the word is not offensive. We’ve established who is in those camps very neatly.
Now we’ve moved on to the treatment of others who don’t share our viewpoints and tolerance of dissenting opinion.
I think arranged marriages are abhorrent, but I respect the fact that other people have different customs.
You might find the use of the word offensive. But another culture has adapted it in a way where it isn’t offensive to them and isn’t meant to refer to you. Why do you get to intrude into that culture to tell them different?
There is a difference when it comes to “cultures” like the KKK. They are actively seeking to harm other people through both word and deed.(I bring this up because someone was going to if I didn’t)
Gamers aren’t trying to hurt anyone. Any offense taken is a perceived slight that isn’t there. It’s the perception that I’ve been arguing just as much as the usage.
by Dave on Jul 23, 2007 at 6:14 pm
I don’t understand how me not wanting you to offend me (like me not wanting you to smoke in my presence) is intruding on any culture or anyone’s right to do anything. Just please don’t offend me. Please? I don’t understand how that is a hard thing to do and why it demands you to take such a stance and why I don’t have a right to point it out if you do offend me without it being called censorship?
Nigger was once a common term for white people to use, not just KKK, but good, wholesome, god-fearing white people. It was just an every day term, with no offense intended. That was the word evolution. It was however still offensive to black people regardless of its intent. It’s terrible word to use. There are other words like it that still offend people when you use them even if you didn’t mean to. Why does it bother you to take them into consideration before you speak? I’m not guessing you would blurt out nigger without thinking about it, even if some gamers came up to you and “no, it’s ok, we use that all the time”? You can make you own decision about using a word whether or not it’s “common” speak, for me by the way and the group of people I see and meet every day, it doesn’t seem to be a common usage of the word.
And if other cultures thought that words I used were offensive, I would try not to use them, that’s called respect. I try to have it for people.
I have no statistics to back this up and someone can correct me if it’s wrong, but I’m guessing that a sample of online gamers would reveal a culture that HEAVILY leans towards young, white males. If this is true, this is not the place I would look to for cultural acceptance of language. It’s easy to see why this group may be quicker to adopt offensive language, historically having been the lead offenders. (I know this and I’m a white male).
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Tracy – Obviously not everyone feels that way.
Othurme – Sarcasm is lost upon the unintelligent.
Dave – If you are not a racist or a homophobe, why would you want to continue using language that construes to others that you are? It’s not about a group or a person having power over your speech, it’s about owning up and being responsible for the words that you use. I can’t read your mind, I can’t tell what your intentions are simply by looking, I have only the words your speak and write to go by. If you use words that I view as offensive or racist how am I supposed to know that you are neither?
I don’t think the conversation has devolved here into a “fuck you dissenter” atmosphere. I think you will agree that the vast majority of the dissenting opinions here have been offered in an intentionally offensive manner.
“When you equate gay as “lame” being offensive to homosexuals, you are saying that the people using the expression are equating it with gay people. … I maintain that when you take this stance you are going to perpetuate the negativity.”
I don’t think it can be made any clearer that the use of “gay” to mean “lame” came about as an insult to homosexuals. It is my opinion that to allow this usage is to perpetuate the negativity.
Mike Deakin – I’ll say again, sarcasm is lost upon the unintelligent.
Hello – what’s wrong with saying fuck?
webmiztris – Here’s a very simple question, typed slowly so that can be easily understood: If you are not a racist or a homophobic bigot, why would you choose to use language that is racist or homophobic?
On the web, you are what you write. I didn’t push what I think on you, I read what you had to say and questioned your usage of the term.
Jennyjinx – Thank you. Exactly.
Mike Deakin – Spooky.
othurme – Glad I can be of assistance, would you like to know your opinions on the flat tax?
Dave – I’m not telling people what they can and cannot say. I’m telling people that I find the use of the term “gay” to mean “lame” offensive. You can absolutely feel free to use it all you want, and I will feel free to interpret it as offensive. I am perplexed by your insistence that there is not a logical progression from “gay” = “lame” = “homosexual” = “lame.”
hello – The illegal immigrant issue isn’t one that makes a very good analogy to this topic. But I think you have put it quite well when you say, “If I can avoid saying fuck in polite society, then i can avoid saying gay or retarded as well. I’m willing to that for my friends, rather sad that you aren’t.”
Dave – Do your black friends allow you to call them “niggers?” Do your Latino friends laugh when you talk about “Spics?” If you don’t use those terms in front of them, but then use the term to a third person, are you not disparaging your friends? If you believe in equality for other races and homosexuals, why would you choose to use language that is detrimental to that end?
You seem to be stuck on this idea that you don’t want someone else imposing their opinions or pressuring you to conform to their standards. No one here is telling you that you aren’t allowed to use the term. No one here is telling you what to say or not say. All you are being told is that your choice to use that term can and will be taken as offensive by many people. It is your choice to offend or not offend as you see fit.
by jester on Jul 23, 2007 at 7:45 pm
@Jester
Because I’ve heard at least one gay friend use the term in the same context, I have to assume that not every gay person agrees with your interpretation of the word.
Nigger and Spic never had different meanings. They’ve never been uttered as far as I know without a negative meaning. I’ve heard the word gay used in all 3 contexts without negative meaning towards a gay person.
If you say don’t see that the comment section has turned against the people putting forward their dissenting opinions I have to believe you you’re also being sarcastic or at least insincere.
@Othurme
Why did black people start using the term African-American? Was black offensive? If so, why was it considered offensive?
Do I have to say African-American when referring to black people? What if they’re from Trinidad?
If I say that’s a black car over there, do I have to say it’s a black car or an African-American car? Of course I say black car because I’m referring to the car, not a person. I know the context in which it’s used, just like I know “black humor” never referred to black people in the history of language.
Gay has been an adjective for a long time. It means happy. Gay recently evolved into a noun/adjective in a different context. It means homosexual. It still also means happy. It is now in an evolution that it will also mean lame. It still also means happy, and it means homosexual when used in a different context.
I’m sick of political correctness. It leads to a society where you can’t say anything without possibly hurting someone’s feeling.
There are soccer leagues where there are no score is kept because someone might win and if there is a winner there is a loser. Can’t have kids thinking they are losers
Kids get a high school diploma without knowing how to read because their teachers a terrified of failing someone.
I’m not going to comment here again. It’s not friendly anymore.
by Dave on Jul 23, 2007 at 8:53 pm
“It is now in an evolution that it will also mean lame”
It doesn’t have to be. You’re choosing to help it’s evolution. Even though you know it’s origin. You acknowledged that “In this particular instance, I do believe that the person who came up with using the word gay, in this was was definitely using it as a bash towards gays…” You can choose not to let it continue and there’s no reason not to? Can you give me a reason why you would want to let it evolve?
by othurme on Jul 23, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Dave – Where have I ever stated that I am speaking on behalf of all gay people everywhere? This post came about as a way to communicate to the people who read my site, most of whom I respect and have befriended, that I find the use of the term “gay” to mean “lame” offensive. I have reiterated several times that you are absolutely free to use whatever language you feel entitled to use.
I don’t think anyone here misunderstands the point you’ve been trying so hard to make. I think the “unwelcomeness” you’re feeling is coming from the frustration from feeling like you’re not being heard, and the frustration from other commenters who are hearing what you say, but don’t agree. We’re talking about a subjective interpretation of a word. Where a heterosexual white man might not see anything wrong a term, a gay black woman might. The issue is whether or not you continue to use the term despite its offensive interpretation.
I’m not black, and I don’t pretend to fully understand the experience even if my own life is similar in many ways. However, I think the use of African-American was an attempt (perhaps a poor one) by people to distinguish their own heritages from those of say, people from Trinidad. No one likes to be lumped into a large group or categorized and labeled based on one characteristic.
Using the term “black” lumped people from many different nationalities together based solely on skin color. It made an assumption that the experience of someone from Africa was the same as a Jamaican. It’s the same as calling anyone from Asia “Chinese” without knowing whether they are from Laos, Thailand, Japan, the Philippines, etc. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to them. There are major cultural differences and to not acknowledge them is rude and presumptuous.
Political correctness for the sake of political correctness is annoying. Using an offensive term simply because you don’t understand (or even don’t agree) that it’s offensive, despite this intelligent and spirited debate, is you making a choice to be offensive.
You can say it with no malicious intent, and I, along with many others, will still read it as offensive.
It’s unfortunate that you feel the atmosphere here is unfriendly. I enjoyed your comments.
by jester on Jul 23, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Today I made a really big mistake. My team leader at work (who I’m cool with – we joke around all the time) is gay and today I accidentally said “you’re gay” after asking him a question if he watched a TV show and he said no. After I said “you’re gay” he said “I know”. Was this really really bad? I’m like afraid of getting fired now! He’s a really soft spoken person that doesn’t yell or get mad – he NEVER gets mad. Do you think he really took this to heart? I’m sure he’s used to people saying “that’s gay…you’re gay” you know to mean STUPID. I NEVER USE THE WORD GAY, I DONT KNOW WHY IT SLIPPED OUT TODAY ALL OF A SUDDEN! I’m so mad at myself and feel horrible!!!
please tell me what I should do or think! 
by Pinkylee on Aug 24, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Pinkylee – I can’t tell you what to do or think, but I can tell you that it’s probably likely that your boss didn’t think anything of your comment. I really wouldn’t worry about it. Just don’t make it a habit, and don’t use it to describe things that you think are highly annoying or lame or otherwise negative. You could always just buy him a little gift. Jewelry is always nice.
by jester on Aug 26, 2007 at 1:10 am
Jester,
Thanks. However yesterday I had to work and I could NOT stop thinking about the mistake I had made. It took me 3 hours after being at work that I finally got the guts to apologize to him. And mind you he is the EASIEST guy to talk to. Sweetest guy ever – never gets mad, nothing and I think people take advantage of that sadly
Anyways, I went up to him and just said kind of kiddingly, “Are you made at me for what I said yesterday?” (he’s more like a friend than a boss!) and he got all serious and said “what did you say yesterday?” and I said you know….and he was like “Yes, I was a little offended” and I just said that I was sorry and that I usually NEVER say the word GAY! And he’s like “I know, I could tell that you were shocked after you said it and you like ran back to your desk”….and I said “I know! I was so embarrassed and couldn’t believe I said that!” so I said that I apologized and he said “Apology accepted”. I still feel like a moron and can’t
believe I said that cause I never say “You’re gay” or “That’s gay”. I did in middle school but not now. So thanks for your help, I read most comments on here the other day to see if anything related to my situation and they only made me feel worse! Haha. But hopefully someone can use my experience as a lesson! Be careful who you say the word gay around – it might just slip out!! :-/
by pinkylee on Aug 26, 2007 at 7:40 am
CORRECTION: “Are you mad* at me for what I said yesterday?”
by pinkylee on Aug 26, 2007 at 7:42 am
pinkylee – I’m glad to hear everything worked out all right. And that you have such a good relationship with your boss that you felt comfortable apologizing despite your embarrassment. If only everyone in the world were able to do so.
by jester on Aug 26, 2007 at 2:27 pm
I’ve given up on the whole political correctness and the change of how the term gay is being changed in our culture. I don’t necessarly consider it a bad thing, I now tell people i’m not gay, I’m a fag.
Then watch their eyes light up like a Xmas tree.
by blackthir13en on Sep 26, 2007 at 7:21 am
blackthir13en – You must be a hit at parties. I think it’s still important to speak up and correct those who use the term without really considering the true meaning. Those who use it intentionally aren’t worth the time or breath it takes to explain such a simple concept.
by jester on Sep 26, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Dear Jester and family:
I just wanted to say that God loves you! The Lord Jesus died for you to save you and to change you! You don’t have to be Gay. God made mankind male and female. No matter how hard you try sir, you cannot give a man what a woman can, and nor can a woman give a another woman what a man can. My heart sincerely go out to people who have been confused about their identity. What a shame and what a waste!
Praying for you,
Shelby
by Shelby on Oct 8, 2007 at 12:08 am
Shelby – I don’t recall the Bible saying anywhere that Jesus died to “change me.” As a matter of fact, I don’t believe Jesus ever had anything to say on the subject. If your God made mankind “male and female” he also made them “gay” and “blonde” and “developmentally disabled” and “dark skinned.” Save your prayers for the hungry, the weak, the unjustly persecuted, the ill… leave me and my gay friends alone. We’re just fine, thank you very much.
by jester on Oct 8, 2007 at 1:11 am
When I read that comment, I got so pissed off! I was going to respond, but felt I needed to calm down first. Your reply was better than anything I could have written.
by Geeky Tai-Tai on Oct 8, 2007 at 1:49 am
When I read this, I thought Shelby was joking. He/she/it was being serious? WTF?
by Avitable on Oct 8, 2007 at 4:13 am
Dear Shelby,
It seems you have extra time and prayers to go around.
Please pray for me. I am an angry vindictive bitch. Seeing comments like this make me want to go all “oh no you di’n't just blaspheme MY God like that…”
And then I try to remember that I’m not supposed to presume to speak for God.
But I’m still feeling angry and wanting to slap you.
Pray for me,
Britt
by Miss Britt on Oct 8, 2007 at 5:47 am
Dear Jester & Friends:
There is no need to be angry! There is however, a need to be gravely concerned about the state of your Soul. Yes, Mr. Jester, Jesus did speak about bringing about lasting change in the human predicament as did the Apostle Paul and others.
My objective is not to make you angry or sad, but to tell you something of eternal significance and that is God loves you! Again, He made mankind “Male & Female” and equipped each with specific organs to accomondate your “God-given” sexual desires. I hope you will think about it.
It is my sincere desire to bring you a message of love and not hate, but to warn of impending judgment should you reject God’s provision of Salvation!
Praying for You!
Shelby
by Shelby on Oct 8, 2007 at 7:39 am
*sigh* I can’t even believe I’m going to go here. Mother Mary, pray for me…
Miss Shelby, there is something significantly wrong with the sentence “Love and not hate, BUT…”
Sweetheart, Jesus talked about unconditional love. With no but’s.
And the whole point of JESUS, if we’re going to go there, is that we are ALL spared “impending judgment”. Jesus does not say “I am the truth and the way and the light – for non sinners. And also straight people.”
Salvation, if we’re so inclined to accept it, is offered to ALL of us, babe. Straights, gays, liars, whores, and hypocritical bitches.
/banging head against brick wall
P.S. I have always been curious – how does God appoint one to be the messenger for impending judgment? Do you get like emails from God or something? How exactly does one get nominated to be the Paul Revere for Hell Fires and Brimstone??
by Miss Britt on Oct 8, 2007 at 8:00 am
Geeky Tai-Tai – I just have more practice answering these types of whack jobs. I could totally hook you up with a couple bigots to polish your responses on if you want.
Avitable – Of course she is being serious. I’ve been meaning to ask you if you ever get people leaving comments on your blog planning to save your soul. Clearly, you are in much more danger than I am.
Miss Britt – She must have extra time on her hands… what must she have been googling to reach that post?
Shelby – It angers me that proselytizers like you are so arrogant to think that my life must be miserable or unfulfilled because I am gay. You think that perhaps it’s possible that I am a 32 year old gay man who has never heard the words “Jesus loves you” in his life. That perhaps I’ve just been sitting here at home wishing that someone would tell me a story and hand me a fabulous mythology that I have heretofore never considered… and that just maybe YOU could be the person who could tell the story in such a compelling way that I would suddenly reexamine my entire life, adopt a heterosexual “lifestyle” and raise dozens of good Christian soldiers who will fight the war of the righteous. If you want to be a good Christian, lead by example; volunteer at a soup kitchen, visit the AIDS wards at your local hospital, teach your children tolerance and understanding, donate to charities, counsel those who come to you seeking it. Wait, I do all those things… perhaps I’m a good Christian after all.
Miss Britt – I’ve often wondered about that myself. I think there’s an elaborate paging system not unlike those you find at busy restaurants. When God needs to talk to you, he makes your head vibrate and light up. Of course, I could be wrong… he might just have an iPhone.
by jester on Oct 8, 2007 at 11:35 am
I don’t mean to imply that God’s never talked to me.
I just don’t usually get cool messages like “get thee out and start warning!”
Mine usually sounds more like “Britt, stop being a whore.”
by Miss Britt on Oct 8, 2007 at 11:42 am
Miss Britt – LOL My friend Lee usually says that kind of stuff to me. Maybe he’s God?
by jester on Oct 8, 2007 at 11:48 am
britt,
that comment almost made me swallow my tongue it was so funny! then again, maybe i should have seeing as how last week i was sucking face with a gay guy. wonder what that means for me? is this (mostly) straight girl going to hell also? oh wait, didn’t mean to ask you because you aren’t the voice of god. perhaps i’ll call alan rickman…
by hellohahanarf on Oct 8, 2007 at 11:51 am
hello – I always thought the voice of God was more like Morgan Freeman’s. Or maybe like Alanis Morrisette in Dogma. I don’t think he’d have an English accent anyway… it would make him/her sound pretentious.
by jester on Oct 8, 2007 at 12:05 pm
my love,
alanis didn’t speak in dogma…alan rickman was the voice of god for her…hence my asking him. besides, he’s dreamy.
by hellohahanarf on Oct 8, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Jester – I’m so glad this post is still producing hits for you. This is blog is way more fun when god chooses to “send” you his word through the moronically challenged.
Shelby – You are the moronically challenged. I figured you were the only one hear that needed that point clarified.
by othurme on Oct 8, 2007 at 12:14 pm
hello – oh that’s right.. she didn’t speak.. she just let out that awful screech. I’ve reconsidered… I think his/her voice would actually sound more like Daryl Hannah’s in Splash when she’s talking in the mermaid language.
by jester on Oct 8, 2007 at 12:14 pm
When I hear God he sounds like my Poppi.
Now, go back and read my last comment, and imagine it coming from this very sweet, gentile, proper old man who thought the absolute world of me.
And people wonder why I have issues.
by Miss Britt on Oct 8, 2007 at 12:22 pm
othurme – I know! It was getting just a tad boring around here lately. I think it’s time to go on my next bigot fishing expedition. Oh. Wait. They usually just come to me.
Miss Britt – Did Poppi have an accent?
by jester on Oct 8, 2007 at 12:27 pm
not an accent so much as a purrrrr
by Miss Britt on Oct 8, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Dear Britt, Jesus did extend His offer of Salvation to everyone (John 3:16), however, the requirement for Salvation is Repentance! That means we have a change of mind with respect to God, Sin, and ourselves, which will lead to a new direction in life.
You cannot make the claim to have been saved and still remain in your rebellion against God. So, while you might want to play games and be critical of me, it won’t deter me one bit from sharing God’s truth.
Shelby
by Shelby C on Oct 8, 2007 at 4:18 pm
You know, my favorite story from the Bible is when a woman was about to get stoned for being caught in the act of adultery, and Jesus drew a line in the sand told those who were without sin to throw the first stone.
Not even those self righteous bastards had the nerve to start hurling rocks.
Dear Shelby, if you really feel like God is calling you to lead people to him – well, whatever. But may I give you a marketing tip? If people are too busy being insulted and pissed of because of your methods, no one is ever going to hear the message that COUNTS.
You know, all that business about “love”.
by Miss Britt on Oct 8, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Miss Britt, you make me giggle. When God speaks to me, she sounds comforting. But I imagine that God sounds most like someone we would listen to.
Avitable, I thought the same thing.
Shelby, you must have known when you posted your comment that you would recieve a lot of differing opinions. Since according to you, I am going to hell anyway, (being non-christian and all) then I am not afraid to tell you you are wrong. Because the Jesus who I have been told about all my life? I think he would have embraced our Gay community. Are you not treating them like outcasts and lepers when you cast them from your society and tell them to change something that is inherent in them? Does it not occur to you that God made Heterosexuals AND Homosexuals for a reason, and that you may not understand but as a Christian you must accept? I have an idea. Perhaps you should look to yourself and ask if you are really following the teachings of Christ when you question God’s creations. Instead of turning your focus on Gays, perhaps you should consider whether you are living a Christlike existance. Because the God who comforts me and tells me everything is going to be ok (in the voice, mind you, of the old guy in The Wedding Singer) would never send someone to hell for living the way they are made and accepting who they are. To lie to one’s self might be the greatest sin of them all. And if you are encouraging that, perhaps you are not listening to the word of God. Perhaps you should be concerned about the state of YOUR soul. After all, yours is the only soul you really have any business worrying over. You warn us of God’s judgement, but isn’t it your opinions you are inflicting upon us right now?
by ginamonster on Oct 8, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Miss Britt – So your poppi was a cat. I see. Yes, I can understand why you have issues.
Shelby – I think the issue here is that until your life is so wonderful, sin-free, and righteous you just keep your judgments to yourself. Oh wait, you’re not supposed to judge either… so even after your life is perfect, you should keep yourself from seeking out others to force your beliefs upon.
Miss Britt – I think a better analogy would be “Stop trying to sell cow shit to a dairy farmer.”
ginamonster – When God speaks to me, I pop an extra Lithium. You know, when I think back on the people in my life who embodies the supposed traits of a good Christian, you know, accepting, loving, compassionate, self-sacrificing, and generous… they were all gay.
by jester on Oct 8, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Hey!! I am “accepting, loving, compassionate, self-sacrificing, and generous”!
Well, I am accepting – of lots of things.
And loving – of.. uh… some people. And stuff. Very loving of stuff.
And – well, I’m empathetic more than compassionate but they are VERY close.
Self-sacrificing – I’m a mother AND a wife, so that’s a given.
And generous! I’m totally generous! I will let you borrow..er… try on my shoes any time you want!
See, not ALL nice people are gay.
Why you gotta hate on the straighties Jester?
by Miss Britt on Oct 9, 2007 at 6:15 am
Miss Britt – I’m not hating on the straighties. I mean come on, my parents are straighties. I’m just saying that if we’re gonna start throwing around “Christian Values,” most gay people I know are much better about following those ideals.
Except for the promiscuity. I mean, we’re all sluts.
by jester on Oct 9, 2007 at 1:42 pm
To everyone on this site, I want to say that it appears that all of you are simply making excuses for your rebellion. The stuff that you say concerning your homosexuality being “God ordained” and “Being created this way” doesn’t hold a wet paper bag chance of justifying your perversion!
Homosexuals tell the same old story about their reasons for being Gay. As a woman I want to speak to the women on this site and perhaps the men will get it at some point.
Those of us who have been sexually active for some time knows that whenever a man releases himself inside of our vaginas, there will always be some reminder of the semen that find their way out onto our underwear. I can’t imagine a man doing that to another man in his Anus only to have the same affect.
How does a man feel “normal” to know that semen is dripping out of his Ass onto his underwear? Please make me understand that. Before you begin to spew out your nonsense about Religious people being hate-filled, etc. This isn’t about hate; it is in fact about what comes naturally to men and women. I’m convinced that God did not intended for a man to have a Penis up his butt and nor did He intend that a woman should have to go to a “Sex Toy” store and buy gadgets to try to do for a woman what He naturally gave to Men. Wake up and come to your senses.
Tory Jenkins
by Tory Jenkins on Oct 9, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Drip? Drip???? HELLO TORY! I suggest you either take your panties off before getting on the ride or cleaning yourself off before putting your clothes back on.
I would have suggested a condom, but I know how “you people” feel about birth control.
by othurme on Oct 9, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Tory Jenkins – I think yours has to be the most ridiculous argument I’ve ever heard. Homosexual sex must be wrong because of semen dripping out of an ass? Women pass all manner of disgusting biohazardous fluids and materials from that gaping hole between their legs and you think a slimy ass is the most abnormal thing? Give me a break. I’m happy for you that you have such a conviction in your knowledge of God’s desires for all of humanity. He must hold you in especially high esteem to trust you with all that knowledge. It’s too bad he couldn’t also gift you with the ability to spell or make a coherent argument. By the way, what is a “semen reminder?” I’m picturing a little sperm icon dancing around on my computer desktop telling me that it’s time to masturbate.
by jester on Oct 9, 2007 at 1:57 pm
OMG, Tory Jenkins, the underwear…I’m laughing. So, apparently Christians think that it’s all about semen in the underwear? Is that what I’m getting?
Thou shalt honor the semen in the underwear
God, I’m gonna die I’m laughing so hard. I’d say give her a night with me to show her what women can do to women (WITHOUT SEX TOYS), but I’m afraid I’d be too grossed out by all that semen in. her. underwear.
by Lori on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:01 pm
tory,
i am a woman. a healthy and happy woman. when my man lovingly licks, fingers or fucks my ass i don’t feel incredibly normal. fulfilled and normal.
honestly, where in the bible does it say that a woman shouldn’t take her man’s penis into her mouth or anus? yes, it tells us that we were made to procreate, but i can’t remember where it says that if we aren’t making babies that we can’t enjoy our loved one. in many, many wonderful ways.
but honestly, my underwear rarely have semen drippings. i mean really, clean up before heading out from your last trick.
by hellohahanarf on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:08 pm
othurme – Seriously, I’ve often falling directly to sleep after sex, but I can’t say I ever got up and put on my underwear without a shower. What kind of nasty does that?
Lori – Thank you for the first belly laugh of the week. “Thou shalt honor the semen in the underwear.” The little known 11th commandment.
hello – I think if you’re not doing it missionary style on the day of your ovulation, you’re pretty much fucked (so to speak) according to these people.
by jester on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:13 pm
jester, you mean you can HONESTLY say you have never chewed your arm off, quickly dressed and ran for the door??!?!? i mean, really! i’ve certainly slept and then ran. but those kinds of nights involved condoms so there was no drippage. guess that is ok somehow?
by hellohahanarf on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:19 pm
hello – Oh I’ve done that, for sure. But not without cleaning up first. I have a weird thing about being dirty or sticky. I don’t deal well with that.
by jester on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:30 pm
To Lori, Why do you automatically assume that I am a “Christian?” Where do you read that in my posting? Yes, I made reference to God, etc. What is funny about the Gay community is you guys are always accusing Christians for hating you, but as I’ve observed over the years, you all are the haters of Christians and Christianity all together! Why is that? I think it is because there is some GUILT there that you know that it is ABNORMAL for you to desire a person of the same sex! And
Jester, for the record, we all know that sperm is designed to swim and to attached themselves to a woman’s eggs. Whenever a man releases semen in a man’s ass, where does the Sperm swim and for what purpose? The only place it can swim is into the Feces.\\which is the most gross and nasty and perverted thing that can happen!
by Tory Jenkins on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Tory – When the gays launch major campaigns to demean, maim, or kill Christians or other religious groups THEN you may act all haughty and offended. Until then, keep your mouth shut and spend some time learning your own history. You are quite wrong about what is the most gross, nasty, or perverted thing that can happen. Your ability to procreate and raise little judgmental bigots in your own image takes that prize.
by jester on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Tory Jenkins – I don’t really care if your Christian or not–you’re a kook regardless. Do you hate me because I’m gay? I’m hurt. Really. Ouch. You win!
I’m so glad I don’t have to look to you to tell me what I am or if God loves me. You are just a ridiculous, and, I might add, irrelevant pimple on the ass.
I bet that’s bothersome–being a pimple so close to the anus.
by Lori on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Lori – It’s only bothersome if that anus belongs to a gay man with questionable hygiene.
by jester on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:51 pm
I did mean Tory–it’s got to bug the crap out of her (oops–might end up in her underwear) to be that pimple.
by Lori on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Lori – I know what you meant.:) I was speaking on her behalf since I could spell “hygiene.”
by jester on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:58 pm
sonofabitch. jsut reread my comment. i tried to type when my man licks, fingers and fucks my ass i DO feel incredibly normal. incredibly fullfilled and normal.
or i DON’T feel ABNORMAL.
guess i am just so tired of folks like tory that i can’t eevn type anymore. she needs to go read someone else’s blog. i mean really, what kind of asshat just wants to comment in a negative manner when they have never commented in a positive one? someone’s glass isn’t half full.
by hellohahanarf on Oct 9, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Tory (or now known around my office as “Baby Daddy Drippings”) – please don’t stop commenting here. It’s not-necessarily-Christian rants like yours that make my work day go so much faster.
by othurme on Oct 9, 2007 at 3:03 pm
hello – Seriously… you don’t really see me seeking out the websites of the religious right and calling them all hypocritical bigots. Maybe I should start doing that.
othurme – Baby Daddy Drippings was the name of my Native American Spiritual Adviser.
by jester on Oct 9, 2007 at 4:23 pm
What is the big fuss everybody? Why is the name calling neccessary? For those of you who is against God, Christianity, or even Christians, you make their point when you go crazy and become defensive.
While I am not on here to judge anybody, I’d say that for “ME” to think of a man in the same way as I would a woman would be very Abnormal !!! I have never had a desire to poke a man or a woman for that matter in the A–Hole, as I do believe that that place is for Exiting only !!! Now, are you mad with me because I feel that way? What did I say that is mean-spirited or hateful? And guess what? I didn’t even profess to be a Chrsitian. There are Non-Church folks who hold to the same convictions as do the Chrsitians. Stop being critical and defensive…you will at least look a little better and have more credibility in the eyes of the world.
by Anthony Perkins on Oct 9, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Um, for the record – anyone who is supportive of gays is not necessarily hating Christians.
For the RECORD:
1 – I’m a Christian (Catholic even!)
2 – I don’t like things in my butt. Exit. Only. Ouch.
3 – I would still happily defend Jester, and anyone else who was gay.
4 – ummm… there should probably be more, but that’s it.
Of course, no one wants to hear from the normal, straight, Christian woman who believes in the Bible and yet STILL doesn’t hate gays. *sigh*
by Miss Britt on Oct 9, 2007 at 5:57 pm
I’m going to make and sell a T-shirt that says “Semen dripping out of an ass is A-OK with me!”
by Avitable on Oct 9, 2007 at 5:58 pm
oh – and to Anthony… CLEARLY you’re not a Christian.
But we all know you voted for Bush.
by Miss Britt on Oct 9, 2007 at 5:58 pm
I’m still trying to figure out how it is that I am suddenly gay because I accept the lifestyle.
I’m also trying to figure out how I am anti Christian because I’m not one and I disagreed with people who are obviously twisting the word of God to serve thier own purposes.
Meanwhile, I am quite disgusted with the throughness in which Tory considers after sex bodily reactions. Who thinks about that?? I mean, I have a pretty dirty mind most of the time and I just never thought about that! That’s Nasty. And I don’t know, I’m usually so busy celebrating my good fortune that I don’t notice whether there’s a bit o goo in my panties.
Although I am with Britt on the whole Exit only thing, it has never occurred to be to think that it’s because the semen should not visit with the feces. It’s because OW and there’s a perfectly good place to put that nearby. But that’s MY personal choice. Some people like it and, good for them.
Also, last I checked, people don’t have a REASON for being Gay, they just are. Just like I am Blonde. There’s no reason behind it, my hair just grows that way. I can dye it, pretend it’s something else, but it will always grow in blonde. It’s the way i’m made. Now that I accept that, my life is so much easier! Thank goodness I don’t have to justify that to people who think I should be a redhead because they don’t believe that God made people with yellow hair. (heh, sometimes I really crack myself up with my bad analogies)
and Jester, for the record? my hole is not gaping…perhaps if it were, there might be drips…
by ginamonster on Oct 9, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Miss Britt, I didn’t tell you either way in terms of my Faith/Beliefs, and if you know that I voted for Bush, then that means even more so that you are full of Crap! For the Record, I didn’t Vote for anyone.
by Anthony on Oct 9, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Anthony Perkins – When the crazy fundamentalists show up on my doorstop and start preaching their intolerance and bigotry I have every right to become defensive. You are perfectly within your right to feel that sex with a man is abnormal for YOU. Your right ends when you start applying that belief to ME.
Miss Britt – I love hearing from the normal straight Christian women who aren’t moronic bigots. It reminds me that all is not lost.
Avitable – I can’t wait to see the illustration.
ginamonster – I won’t ask for any photographic evidence of the status of your “hole.” But I would like to thank you for coining another phrase that shall live on in perpetuity around here: panty goo.
Anthony – Are you claiming to have some sound argument against homosexuality that does not invoke the Bible or some other religious mythology?
by jester on Oct 10, 2007 at 12:28 am
[...] like every 4 or 5 months, some crazy bigot (or more than one) shows up and hijacks a conversation, turning it into yet another [...]
by Jestertunes » In which Jester “hates Christians” on Oct 10, 2007 at 1:58 am
Don’t worry jester, there is no photographic evidence, and there never will be because that’s nasty and I might decide I want to be president someday. Should you grow weary of panty goo, there is always vagina drip (a term used quite frequently in my house, but not by me) and ass ooze which is so wrong in so many ways that it turns my stomach and I can’t believe I thought of it. heh. I really gross me out sometimes.
by ginamonster on Oct 10, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Ginamonster – panty goo, vagina drip, and ass ooze in one short comment. ::applaud::
by jester on Oct 10, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Thank you, thank you. Someday I will find my digital recorder and record some of the conversations and insults that fly in my house. when I do, I’ll be sure to post them on my blog for you.
by ginamonster on Oct 10, 2007 at 7:42 pm
ginamonster – Oh, I can not WAIT for that.
by jester on Oct 10, 2007 at 7:47 pm
“Whenever a man releases semen in a man’s ass, where does the Sperm swim and for what purpose? The only place it can swim is into the Feces.\\which is the most gross and nasty and perverted thing that can happen!”
AHAHAHHHAAAAHAHA THAT IS SO FUCKING FUNNY!! HAHAA….I’m glad I went back to look…that’s just, ahh..so funny…ahh, i feel better now
by Branden on Nov 2, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Branden – Funny, and sad at the same time.
by jester on Nov 3, 2007 at 11:35 pm
you know, no matter how often I look at this, and how much time passes. I still can’t stop laughing about how these people were talking about dripping cum out of vaginas and assholes…Its like….whoa…I thought your not allowed to have unclean thoughts.
by Branden on Jan 2, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Branden – No kidding, I’m not even that demented.
by jester on Jan 2, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Brandon I so agree with you it iz sooo annoying when people are alwayz saying “thatz so gay”. So to counter act their stupidity i just turn the tables on them and instead of saying ” Thats so gay” I just say “thats so straight”. All the straight people get so annoyed and pissed off and I love it because it really does make an impact. We dont want people reffering to our sexuality as something negitve or wrong, so I make them see how it feels through our eyes. Everyone who supports us should try it.
Jenn’s last blog post…The Jester Show for March 12, 2008
by Jenn on Mar 13, 2008 at 7:46 am
Jenn – Yeah, that doesn’t seem to have worked so well, if you read this entire thread.
by jester on Mar 13, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Some stereotypes are true, and funny… well, I suppose it all depends on who you ask. This day of political correctness, who knows what’s safe to say.
by Edinburgh Lover on Aug 24, 2008 at 8:34 pm